Lingua Latina

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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Sun 11 Oct 2009 10:30 am

Why do people always conclude from what 'I'm saying something completely different?! Am I not translating this into English correctly?!

I don't want to force people to do anything (how did you conclude I want to force people I can't figure out). I don't want them to choose by their own free will something harder if there is something easier but I don't want them to choose something easier just because it is easier.
- Latina Ἑλληνική संस्कृतम् पाळि עִבְרִית پارسيک الفصحى 文言 Norrœnt
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Sun 11 Oct 2009 4:37 pm

I thought we were talking about language-learning as part of education.

But back on topic, why should people study the harder of two languages just because it's harder, as opposed to what's more useful?
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Sun 11 Oct 2009 5:54 pm

No, I thought we are talking about why do people choose something just because it is easier. The question whether something is useful or not is not relevant to this discussion. For the sake of it, if you could choose between two languages that are equally useful to you and both you like them both equally but you could only choose one, but one of them is harder to learn (for example you as an English speaker are about to choose between Spanish and Georgian), which one would you choose? If you don't care about difficulty and choose either one, then it's OK with me. But if you choose the easier one just because it is easier to learn then we need to ask the question why? Considering for example that you have time and money and all the comfort to learn a language, what except your own free will is actually stopping you to choose the harder language? And based on what does your free will tells you to choose the easier one if there aren't any external obstacles?

My point in this entire discussion was why choose the easier language if there is no real reason not to choose the harder one. My definition of an harder language in this whole case that it is hard for one to learn internally, because the language is different than one's own and that it is perhaps more complex, for example it has many more oddities and exceptions from the majority of rules; or that the person who wants to learn it is not very skilled in language learning, that it had poor education in its own native language and has trouble understanding the basic concepts, like what is a noun (although this may not be an issue; my mom speaks five languages and I had to explain to her what verbs are).
- Latina Ἑλληνική संस्कृतम् पाळि עִבְרִית پارسيک الفصحى 文言 Norrœnt
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Declan » Sun 11 Oct 2009 7:40 pm

Delodephius wrote:That it had poor education in its own native language and has trouble understanding the basic concepts, like what is a noun.

That's irrelevant, you don't have to be able to analyse a language to speak it fluently, in fact, I'd say to speak a language fluently you shouldn't have to think about the grammar of that language at all.

Even though it's a contrived situation, chosing something because it's harder is an equally bad reason as because it is easier. If you are genuinely interested in learning something, ease of learning shouldn't be an issue, neither because it is easier nor because it is harder. You can't become proficient in any language (in general), without a huge amount of effort, even for the easier language, so it shouldn't be an issue, either way.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Sun 11 Oct 2009 8:51 pm

Well, learning in the more traditional way requires to learn what are parts of speech. Look at the old textbooks for Latin from the late 19th century. But there are many other ways to learn a language therefore as you said there is no actual need for most of those ways to learn parts of speech to learn a language.

I just get the feeling that choosing the easier options an entire life will produce "weak" individuals who will run away before anything more challenging. They'll give up more easily. I gave up many times and regret I did. I wish I had stuck to my language learning even when I lost motivation for learning it. To me it looks like I wasn't "strong" enough to go through it even when I lost sight of the goal.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Declan » Sun 11 Oct 2009 10:32 pm

Delodephius wrote:Well, learning in the more traditional way requires to learn what are parts of speech.
I know, I'm just saying that you cannot really be uneducated in your native language.

Delodephius wrote:I just get the feeling that choosing the easier options an entire life will produce "weak" individuals who will run away before anything more challenging. They'll give up more easily. I gave up many times and regret I did.

I'm notorious for giving up, I'm rather like current in that regard. My point is, that choosing something because it is hard isn't admirable, it's as pointless as choosing something because it is easy. You should do what you do because you enjoy it, not because it is easy, hard, or even useful.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Mon 12 Oct 2009 2:57 am

Delodephius wrote:If you don't care about difficulty and choose either one, then it's OK with me. But if you choose the easier one just because it is easier to learn then we need to ask the question why?
Because the opportunity cost of exerting more effort to learn the harder language is time you could be spending mastering the easier language or doing something else that's useful.
I just get the feeling that choosing the easier options an entire life will produce "weak" individuals who will run away before anything more challenging. They'll give up more easily. I gave up many times and regret I did. I wish I had stuck to my language learning even when I lost motivation for learning it. To me it looks like I wasn't "strong" enough to go through it even when I lost sight of the goal.
I'd give up Georgian before Spanish any day.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Mon 12 Oct 2009 7:31 am

Your civilization is governed by the sentiment that what is easier is better. Mine is governed by the sentiment that what is harder is better. End of discussion because it is pointless to go any further.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Mon 12 Oct 2009 8:33 am

No, that's a mischaracterization. What is easier isn't necessarily better. But choosing the easier of two otherwise equivalent choices simply makes more sense. I don't believe in hard work for the sake of itself.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Mon 12 Oct 2009 9:01 am

Talib wrote:No, that's a mischaracterization. What is easier isn't necessarily better. But choosing the easier of two otherwise equivalent choices simply makes more sense. I don't believe in hard work for the sake of itself.

Choosing the harder of the two equivalent choices will "toughen" you. We call this zahertuvať and it's the philosophy under which I was raised, as were most of my kin.
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