Favorite rhotic consonant

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Favorite rhotic?

alveolar/dental approximant
1
7%
alveolar/dental trill
6
43%
alveolar/dental tap/flap
2
14%
alveolar/dental lateral flap
0
No votes
retroflex approximant
1
7%
retroflex tap/flap
0
No votes
uvular approximant
3
21%
uvular trill
1
7%
 
Total votes : 14

Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Sobekhotep » Sun 20 Sep 2009 12:15 am

Here's a poll to choose your favorite rhotic consonant.
A breakdown of each rhotic:
-alveolar (or dental) approximant [ɹ]: occurs in certain varieties of English, German, Dutch & some other languages.
-alveolar (or dental) trill [r]: occurs in Spanish, Arabic, Russian & many other languages.
-alveolar (or dental) tap/flap [ɾ]: occurs in Hindustani, Spanish, Portuguese & many other languages.
-alveolar (or dental) lateral flap [ɺ]: occurs in Japanese.
-retroflex approximant [ɻ]: occurs in Mandarin, Tamil, Malayalam & some other languages.
-retroflex flap/tap [ɽ]: occurs in certain varieties of English, in Hindustani, in Hausa and some other languages.
-uvular approximant [ʁ]: occurs in French, German, certain varieties of Portuguese & many other languages.
-uvular trill [ʀ]: occurs in certain varieties of French, Portuguese, Hebrew, and some other languages.

Which is your favorite?
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby sokuban » Sun 20 Sep 2009 3:00 am

I never knew there was a difference between these three:

-alveolar (or dental) trill [r]: occurs in Spanish, Arabic, Russian & many other languages.
-alveolar (or dental) tap/flap [ɾ]: occurs in Hindustani, Spanish, Portuguese & many other languages.
-alveolar (or dental) lateral flap [ɺ]: occurs in Japanese.

(Yea, trills there is an obvious difference, but most of the time trills or taps or flaps it really doesn't matter.)
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Talib » Sun 20 Sep 2009 7:49 pm

Some languages contrast a trill [r] and flap [ɾ] (Spanish, Italian). In others, one is an allophone of the other (Hindi, Swedish). And then some languages have only one (Arabic) or the other (Korean).
Sobekhotep wrote:-alveolar (or dental) lateral flap [ɺ]: occurs in Japanese.
Does this count as a rhotic? Most languages contrast a rhotic and lateral, but I had the impression it was neither/something in between in Japanese.
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Sobekhotep » Mon 21 Sep 2009 4:32 am

Talib wrote:Some languages contrast a trill [r] and flap [ɾ] (Spanish, Italian).

I thought Italian just has the single trill.

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:-alveolar (or dental) lateral flap [ɺ]: occurs in Japanese.
Does this count as a rhotic? Most languages contrast a rhotic and lateral, but I had the impression it was neither/something in between in Japanese.

I think it counts. The sound is almost always romanized as <r> and has other rhotic allophones.
The IPA symbol for it resembles an "r". :D

What did y'all vote for? I personally like the alveolar trill so that's what I voted for. About a week ago I finally figured out how to pronounce it, too. :P
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Talib » Mon 21 Sep 2009 2:28 pm

Sobekhotep wrote:I thought Italian just has the single trill.
Nah. I think it has a similar distribution to Spanish: <r> is /ɾ/ and <rr> is /r/.
I think it counts. The sound is almost always romanized as <r> and has other rhotic allophones.
The IPA symbol for it resembles an "r". :D
I suppose, but the only language I know of that has it is Japanese, which doesn't contrast it with a lateral. I always thought of it as in between.
What did y'all vote for? I personally like the alveolar trill so that's what I voted for. About a week ago I finally figured out how to pronounce it, too. :P
That's what I voted for. I have no problem pronouncing it either (well, almost no problem - it can be tricky when geminated).

I personally don't like the sound of the two uvular rhotics. Especially in Hebrew. Argh, they don't belong there...
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby r_howie » Mon 21 Sep 2009 8:06 pm

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:I thought Italian just has the single trill.
Nah. I think it has a similar distribution to Spanish: <r> is /ɾ/ and <rr> is /r/.

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says:
The trill /r/ is sometimes reduced to a single vibration when single, but it remains potentially a trill, not a flap [ɾ].
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Sobekhotep » Tue 22 Sep 2009 1:37 am

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:I thought Italian just has the single trill.
Nah. I think it has a similar distribution to Spanish: <r> is /ɾ/ and <rr> is /r/.

But in Italian doubling of consonants usually means gemination. So <r> would be /r/ & <rr> would be /rː/.

Talib wrote:I personally don't like the sound of the two uvular rhotics. Especially in Hebrew. Argh, they don't belong there...

I don't mind them, but I agree that they don't belong in Hebrew. At least the Sephardim & Temanim use a coronal rhotic. ;)

r_howie wrote:For what it's worth, Wikipedia says:
The trill /r/ is sometimes reduced to a single vibration when single, but it remains potentially a trill, not a flap [ɾ].

That's what I thought, although I've read accounts of native Italian speakers who always use [ɾ].
You're a native Italian speaker, right? How do you pronounce <r> & <rr>?
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby Talib » Tue 22 Sep 2009 2:03 am

But in Italian doubling of consonants usually means gemination. So <r> would be /r/ & <rr> would be /rː/.
Guess I was mistaken. I assumed it was [ɾ] when ungeminated and [r] when geminated, but the way you describe it makes sense too.

Although I like the sound of [r] I think [ɾ] is easier to pronounce.
I don't mind them, but I agree that they don't belong in Hebrew. At least the Sephardim & Temanim use a coronal rhotic.
Hmm, I thought you stopped studying French because you didn't like the way it sounded.
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby r_howie » Tue 22 Sep 2009 2:51 am

Sobekhotep wrote:I've read accounts of native Italian speakers who always use [ɾ].
You're a native Italian speaker, right? How do you pronounce <r> & <rr>?

Short answer: like most Italians, I use the alveolar trill /r/ (geminate or not).
<rr> is just like in Spanish, while a single <r> is a single, "one-contact" trill. However, here are a few remarks for a more elaborate answer:

- some texts classify what I called a single trill as a "tap/trill" (perhaps suggesting that both realizations are valid – I am confused now)
- the third paragraph of this document (which focuses on a very specific subject that is beyond our scope, but this one paragraph talks about Standard Italian) suggests that some scholars consider a third realization of <r>, too, besides the two trills: the tap
- I believe that some speakers (including but not limited to the Veneto region) do use the tap /ɾ/ with a certain consistency, for example in inter-vocalic position
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Re: Favorite rhotic consonant

Postby imbecilica » Wed 23 Sep 2009 3:20 am

Well for some reason words starting with r in Vietnamese can be pronounced as a retroflex fricative [ʐ], a postalveolar fricative [ʒ], a flap [ɾ], a trill [r], a fricative flap [ɾ̝,] or a fricative trill [r̝] - oh and also as an alveolar approximant <ɹ> and lazily as ɣ. I don't like uvular approximant [ʁ] very much...but I do love them trills!
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