Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby heremaecg » Wed 24 Jun 2009 6:02 pm

(He probably can't see my post but for the benefit of others)

we Slovaks, Serbs, Poles, Czechs


Don't speak for us. I don't think you can even speak for Slovaks. We Slavs, especially South and East Slavs, built our culture upon that of the Greeks. Your sig is "Slavs are the indigenous peoples of Europe." They're not. The Indo-Europeans invaded and some of them became Balto-Slavs and then a group of those became the Slavs. Your arguments are as inane as those of the Moyer guy.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby linguoboy » Wed 24 Jun 2009 9:08 pm

Delodephius wrote:When we say Europeans, we Slovaks, Serbs, Poles, Czechs, etc. what do you think we mean by that term?

I don't think all of you mean the same thing. After all, the Poles, Czechs, and Slovaks (not to mention the Slovenes and Bulgars) are all members of the European Union.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Wed 24 Jun 2009 9:18 pm

Despite being in the EU the people in those countries don't yet feel European. Europe is still the Western Europe. This may change over time, when the older generations forget they were once part of the Eastern Bloc.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Talib » Thu 25 Jun 2009 6:29 am

Why does being in the Eastern Bloc not make people European? That was a few decades in millennia of European history. Germany and Poland are as European as any country and they were Red for a while.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Thu 25 Jun 2009 7:27 am

Again: forget what actually is in reality and consider how common people see things.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Caenwyr » Thu 25 Jun 2009 8:37 am

Delodephius wrote:forget what actually is in reality

Now that's a clever remark...
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Anders » Thu 25 Jun 2009 12:13 pm

Caenwyr wrote:
Delodephius wrote:forget what actually is in reality

Now that's a clever remark...

What Delodephius means is that a people can live in Europe but don't regard themself to be real europeans. We had a similar discussion in the old forum. In Sweden we don't really regard ourself to be a part of "the continent", as we say. We are more special than the others and there are water between us and them (if you don't go over Russia that is, but Russia is Russia for Gods sake, not Europe). The people on the brittish islands probably see Swedes as Europeans in the real sence but the brittish themselfs live on real islands and are therefor special and not at all part of "the continent".

Malagasy people don't regard thenself as African either. To call madagascians "Africans" is a big no-no.
I guess most people see themself as special in this way.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Caenwyr » Thu 25 Jun 2009 1:55 pm

I knew he was trying to say that, but knowing that most peoples think of themselves as "not belonging to the continent" in some way, this is not exactly the best argument when trying to prove that Greeks are barbarians...

Many peoples feel the same way, even many nations in Europe. Does this mean none of them belong to Europe? That they're all barbaric? Or some other option maybe, e.g. that this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion? Assuming for the sake of argument that the discussion itself isn't irrelevant.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Thu 25 Jun 2009 4:01 pm

That Greeks don't see themselves as Europeans was not the starting topic. Since on this forum the topic usually gets lost in the discussion, let me remind you of what this topic is about: Greece's human rights abuse, their denial of the genocide against the Macedonian minority in the past, their current denial of linguicide of the Macedonian minority's language and other minority languages (namely Vlach, Turkish and Romany), the prosecution of individuals and groups who define themselves anything but Greek inside the borders of the Hellenic Republic, and so forth.
Greece does not make a census on ethnicity only on Greek citizenship therefore there are no data on how many or how large are the ethnic minorities in Greece, or how many of Greek citizens speak another languages as native besides Greek (according to the Albanians who live inside Greek borders at least half of Greeks speak Albanian dialects as their primary language).
Then there are many problems with Anti-Semitism and Racism, which is spread much wider than in any other Balkan or European country, the oppression of the Roma people which is also one of the worst cases in the Balkans (apart from Kosovo), extreme examples of chauvinism in media, the restriction of free speech, constant call for a holy war by the Orthodox Greek clergy, terrorist suicide threats, unrestricted activity of Neo-Nazi parties, and so on and on.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Caenwyr » Thu 25 Jun 2009 4:16 pm

So basically you're repeating everything you said in your first few posts and ignoring every remark the other members of the forum made.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you did your research and the things you mention here are genuine. In fact, if they are I'll have to change my view of the Greeks quite a bit! And I will do so without hesitation.

But. There's a thin line between accusing some individuals of certain unethical (or even illegal) behaviour and saying that an entire nation (or conglomerate of nations) is doing these things.

Simple example: in Flanders, the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, one of the biggest political parties nowadays is "Vlaams Belang", an extreme right political party which demands nothing less than independence from the French "oppressors". I'm a Flemming myself. But I refuse to be linked with any of the ideas of this political party. See what I mean? You cannot condemn an entire nation for the action of some crazy folks!
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