Talk in a language you don't know

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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Thu 13 Sep 2012 4:27 am

Tikolm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Just a couple, really. Dydd wedi doesn't mean anything;

I didn't think it would. I was just making a guess based on the form blwyddyn wedi, which seems to mean "the next year".

Where have you seen that before?

I've seen blwyddyn wedi hyn for "the year after this", but never *blwyddyn wedi on its own like that. Wedi is a preposition, not an adjective. The way you say "next year" is blwyddyn nesa.

Tikolm wrote:So the 'f' is dropped in spelling as well as speech? I didn't know that.

In informal contexts, yeah. Similarly, nesa, above, would be written nesaf in a newspaper article, but in a context like this, that seems a bit fussy.

Tikolm wrote:So there would be three possible ways of writing this:
a) Bydda(f) i'n mynd i'r ysgol yfory. (neutral)
b) Dw i'n mynd i'r ysgol yfory. (neutral)
c) Rhaid i mi fynd i'r ysgol yfory. (necessary)

Those are three possible ways of expressing this idea, yes. (There are many more besides, of course, just as with English.)

Tikolm wrote:I think the appropriate one here would have been c), as the point was that I had to go to bed because I had to wake up early for school tomorrow. (Not sure what "wake up early for" would be.)

If you literally mean "wake up", the verb is deffro (N)/dihuno (S). But codi "get up" would be more common in this context.

If cynnar means "early", how would you make this into an adverb?

"For" can be tricky to translate. I think in this instance, I would go with i fynd i'r ysgol. Oherwydd ysgol "because of school" would also work.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Thu 13 Sep 2012 3:45 pm

linguoboy wrote:Where have you seen that before?

http://babelstone.blogspot.ca/2006/08/welsh-double-d.html
(modern Welsh blwyddyn wedi "the next year")

I've seen blwyddyn wedi hyn for "the year after this", but never *blwyddyn wedi on its own like that.
No? That's funny.
Wedi is a preposition, not an adjective.
But it means roughly "after", and I'm pretty sure you can say "the year after" (or something similar) in English and French. Is Welsh different then?
The way you say "next year" is blwyddyn nesa.
I see.

In informal contexts, yeah. Similarly, nesa, above, would be written nesaf in a newspaper article, but in a context like this, that seems a bit fussy.
Right.
I had some kind of half-idea that 'f' wouldn't be dropped intervocalically or in liaison, but I guess I was wrong.
If you literally mean "wake up", the verb is deffro (N)/dihuno (S). But codi "get up" would be more common in this context.

If cynnar means "early", how would you make this into an adverb?
Yn gynnar, I suppose.

"For" can be tricky to translate. I think in this instance, I would go with i fynd i'r ysgol. Oherwydd ysgol "because of school" would also work.

So I'd say something like:
Rhaid i mi codi yn gynnar i fynd i'r ysgol yfory.

That is, unless it's really godi'n gynnar.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Thu 13 Sep 2012 7:09 pm

Tikolm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Where have you seen that before?

http://babelstone.blogspot.ca/2006/08/welsh-double-d.html
(modern Welsh blwyddyn wedi "the next year")

The link provided leads to a reproduction of the original manuscript page. You can see there that the full phrase in context is "blwydyn wedy hyn̄y", i.e. blwyddyn wedi hynny "[the] year after that".

Why are you looking at articles on mediaeval Welsh for information about modern usage anyway?

Tikolm wrote:
Wedi is a preposition, not an adjective.
But it means roughly "after", and I'm pretty sure you can say "the year after" (or something similar) in English and French. Is Welsh different then?

After in English (and après in French) is both a preposition and an adverb. Wedi is, as far as I know, only a preposition. The word corresponding to "after" in the sense of "afterwards" would be wedyn[*].

Tikolm wrote:I had some kind of half-idea that 'f' wouldn't be dropped intervocalically or in liaison, but I guess I was wrong.

Some people do speak that way, but then typically the f is shown attached to the following pronoun, e.g. Bydda fi.


Rhaid i mi codi yn gynnar i fynd i'r ysgol yfory.
That is, unless it's really godi'n gynnar.

Ydy. When yn is a link particle, then the y is dropped after a vowel. And pronouns are followed by soft mutation.

[*] Which I suspect might be in origin a contraction of wedi hyn "after this".
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Thu 13 Sep 2012 8:29 pm

linguoboy wrote:The link provided leads to a reproduction of the original manuscript page. You can see there that the full phrase in context is "blwydyn wedy hyn̄y", i.e. blwyddyn wedi hynny "[the] year after that".
Oh, you're right.

Why are you looking at articles on mediaeval Welsh for information about modern usage anyway?
:lol: I'm not. I was looking at those articles for information on medieval Welsh spelling. If I got any ideas about modern usage, then that's just a side effect.

After in English (and après in French) is both a preposition and an adverb. Wedi is, as far as I know, only a preposition. The word corresponding to "after" in the sense of "afterwards" would be wedyn[*].

[*] Which I suspect might be in origin a contraction of wedi hyn "after this".
I see.

Ydy. When yn is a link particle, then the y is dropped after a vowel. And pronouns are followed by soft mutation.
As I thought. I didn't know that all pronouns did that, but it makes sense.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Thu 13 Sep 2012 10:18 pm

Tikolm wrote:
Ydy. When yn is a link particle, then the y is dropped after a vowel. And pronouns are followed by soft mutation.
As I thought. I didn't know that all pronouns did that, but it makes sense.

Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that (I know, tired of me saying that, aren't you?) but this works as a first approximation.

Rhaid i mi ffonio fy ffrind yn Nashville yfory. Dw i'n gweld ei golli e.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Thu 13 Sep 2012 11:11 pm

linguoboy wrote:Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that (I know, tired of me saying that, aren't you?)
Nag ydw.
but this works as a first approximation.

Rhaid i mi ffonio fy ffrind yn Nashville yfory. Dw i'n gweld ei golli e.

First approximation of what? I'm not sure what you're trying to show me exactly. I can see that ffonio is irregularly resisting mutation -- is that what your point was? Or did it sail over my head again?
(I also couldn't find any matches for golli at UWTSD, but GT translated the sentence using it as "I miss him".)
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Fri 14 Sep 2012 3:31 am

Paid â rhoi llaeth i'r ci!
Oes tatw yn y llaeth?
(Feel free to correct any mistakes, but try to answer the question too. :P)
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Fri 14 Sep 2012 3:41 am

Tikolm wrote:First approximation of what?

What I mean is "This is a rule that will cover something like 95+% of all cases and you can learn the remaining exceptions as you go along."

Tikolm wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to show me exactly. I can see that ffonio is irregularly resisting mutation -- is that what your point was? Or did it sail over my head again?

I wasn't particularly trying to demonstrate anything, I was just giving you another sentence to work with.

Tikolm wrote:(I also couldn't find any matches for golli at UWTSD

Did you try colli?

Tikolm wrote:Oes tatw yn y llaeth?

The usual plural of taten "potato" is tatws. (Tato in the South.) Tatw exists but it's nonstandard and rare.

Ateb: Mae llaeth yn y tatws ond does dim tatws yn y llaeth.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Fri 14 Sep 2012 3:40 pm

linguoboy wrote:Did you try colli?
No, but I should have. I'll do it now:

1. to lose v. coll- to miss v. coll- to spill v. coll-
I still don't see why you need gweld, but I guess that's my problem.
linguoboy wrote:The usual plural of taten "potato" is tatws. (Tato in the South.) Tatw exists but it's nonstandard and rare.
I seem to recall Welsh with Ease giving tatw, which is why I used it.

linguoboy wrote:Ateb: Mae llaeth yn y tatws ond does dim tatws yn y llaeth.
I see. (I'm afraid I can't think of an intelligent response to that in either language. Does dw i'n gweld work here, or is it better just to say dw i'n deall?)
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Fri 14 Sep 2012 4:43 pm

Tikolm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ateb: Mae llaeth yn y tatws ond does dim tatws yn y llaeth.
I see. (I'm afraid I can't think of an intelligent response to that in either language. Does dw i'n gweld work here, or is it better just to say dw i'n deall?)

Dw i'n gweld is more idiomatic.

Lle mae'r ci nawr?
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