Manna

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Re: Manna

Postby Alisbet » Tue 27 Jul 2010 7:57 pm

linguoboy wrote:
falasha wrote:Chicken could only be a diminuative of Chick/chiche/cece.

Chicken isn't a diminutive of chick. Rather, these are both variant forms of the same root word, OE cicen. (Cf. oft/often.) For a similar vowel change, see: fox > vixen.

The diminutive of chiche would be *chichen, a form which is not attested in any stage of English.

Cece is not an English word.


That seems rather reasonable to me.
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Re: Manna

Postby linguoboy » Tue 27 Jul 2010 8:58 pm

Alisbet wrote:That seems rather reasonable to me.

Should be, it's got solid scholarship behind it. Everything I say here about English etymology can be verified from the Oxford English Dictionary and similar vetted sources (i.e. not kook sites on the web).
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Re: Manna

Postby Dan_ad_nauseam » Wed 28 Jul 2010 3:30 am

falasha wrote:Claim 1: Chicken diminutive of chiche and chiche derived from cicer.
Claim 2: http://books.google.com/books?id=m2QSAA ... ym&f=false
Claim 3: This is not my original theory. This came from a Torah study I read some time ago. Also, Ruth is not from any regular Hebrew root and it's origin is still speculative.
Claim 4: I don't expect you to understand since you have problems with parables and metaphors.

BTW: I am claiming all these word have a similar origin. By "misusing" are you saying they do not have same origin?


Oy.
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Re: Manna

Postby Talib » Wed 28 Jul 2010 4:00 am

The ancient Hebrews used anagrams, parables, synonyms, insertion of meaningful letters, etc. as symbology to create meaning. Each letter has a symbolic meaning and the order has importance.
No, that's the practice of gematria which is an older invention having nothing to do with the authors of the text. Unless you believe in divine inspiration, it's not remotely believable
What is stupid is to claim the ancients did not know how birds defecate.
It would be if I said this, but I didn't. What is stupid is to claim that they referred to shit and piss are the same thing. They're not.
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Re: Manna

Postby Dan_ad_nauseam » Wed 28 Jul 2010 4:08 am

linguoboy wrote:
Alisbet wrote:That seems rather reasonable to me.

Should be, it's got solid scholarship behind it. Everything I say here about English etymology can be verified from the Oxford English Dictionary and similar vetted sources (i.e. not kook sites on the web).


Indeed, the Online Etymology Dictionary, http://www.etymonline.com (visited July 27, 2010) traces it to W.Gmc. *kiukinam, and thence to the root *keuk-. That's where onomatopoeia appears to come in.

(All subsequent etymologies from Online Etymology Dictionary.)

Ruth is probably a contraction of Heb. reuth "companion, friend, fellow woman."

Falasha also has "column" wrong. It comes from OF colombe, which in turn is from L. columna ("pillar"), a collateral form of columen ("top, summit"), derived from PIE *kel- ("to project"). Nothing to do with doves except as a place to perch.

Finally, his/her argument that "chicken" is a diminutive misattributes several words as diminutives:

Burden: From OE byrðen ("a load, weight, charge, duty"), from P.Gmc. *burthinjo ("that which is borne"), from PIE *bher- (1) ("carry, give birth.")

Even: From OE efen ("level, equal"), from P.Gmc. *ebnaz.

Heaven: As Falasha noted, from OE heofon (which actually means "home of God"), possibly P.Gmc. *khemina-, from PIE *kem-/*kam- ("to cover").

Morn: Contraction, not diminutive, of ME morwen, from OE (Mercian) margen (dat. of marne), earlier morgen (dat. morgne), from P.Gmc. *marganaz, *murganaz ("morning"), perhaps from PIE *mergh- ("to blink, twinkle").

Oven: From OE ofen ("furnace, oven"), from P.Gmc. *ukhnaz , from PIE *aukw- ("cooking pot").

Vixen: From OE *fyxen (feminine of fox), with Gmc feminine suffix -en, -in.

Weapon: From OE wæpen ("instrument of fighting and defense") from P.Gmc. *wæpnan, from *webno-m, of unknown origin.
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Re: Manna

Postby falasha » Sat 31 Jul 2010 7:11 pm

Dan_ad_nauseam wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Alisbet wrote:That seems rather reasonable to me.

Should be, it's got solid scholarship behind it. Everything I say here about English etymology can be verified from the Oxford English Dictionary and similar vetted sources (i.e. not kook sites on the web).


Indeed, the Online Etymology Dictionary, http://www.etymonline.com (visited July 27, 2010) traces it to W.Gmc. *kiukinam, and thence to the root *keuk-. That's where onomatopoeia appears to come in.

(All subsequent etymologies from Online Etymology Dictionary.)

Ruth is probably a contraction of Heb. reuth "companion, friend, fellow woman."

Falasha also has "column" wrong. It comes from OF colombe, which in turn is from L. columna ("pillar"), a collateral form of columen ("top, summit"), derived from PIE *kel- ("to project"). Nothing to do with doves except as a place to perch.

Finally, his/her argument that "chicken" is a diminutive misattributes several words as diminutives:

Burden: From OE byrðen ("a load, weight, charge, duty"), from P.Gmc. *burthinjo ("that which is borne"), from PIE *bher- (1) ("carry, give birth.")

Even: From OE efen ("level, equal"), from P.Gmc. *ebnaz.

Heaven: As Falasha noted, from OE heofon (which actually means "home of God"), possibly P.Gmc. *khemina-, from PIE *kem-/*kam- ("to cover").

Morn: Contraction, not diminutive, of ME morwen, from OE (Mercian) margen (dat. of marne), earlier morgen (dat. morgne), from P.Gmc. *marganaz, *murganaz ("morning"), perhaps from PIE *mergh- ("to blink, twinkle").

Oven: From OE ofen ("furnace, oven"), from P.Gmc. *ukhnaz , from PIE *aukw- ("cooking pot").

Vixen: From OE *fyxen (feminine of fox), with Gmc feminine suffix -en, -in.

Weapon: From OE wæpen ("instrument of fighting and defense") from P.Gmc. *wæpnan, from *webno-m, of unknown origin.



You copied your etymology from "Online Etymology" and I copied mine from "Wiki Diminutive". I think wiki is right.

Dan has Colombe wrong.
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Re: Manna

Postby Dan_ad_nauseam » Sat 31 Jul 2010 9:13 pm

falasha wrote:You copied your etymology from "Online Etymology" and I copied mine from "Wiki Diminutive". I think wiki is right.

Dan has Colombe wrong.


Cite, please. I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for "diminutive" and note that none of the words you cite as diminutives bear any citations therefor. Which is par for the course with Wikipedia.
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Re: Manna

Postby falasha » Sat 31 Jul 2010 9:21 pm

Ultimately, I think these words (ce ce, chiche, cicer, etc.) are from the word "Kikkur". It has been translated as "plain" as in Cities of the Plain, but I think it should be translated as "skyline". The Kaf is the palm of God covering the earth and the dividing line is seen by men as the arc of horizon line. The Resh is the resh pole or axis mundi that holds up the heavens. So the skyline of human habitation would be like the dividing line between heaven and earth. Jericho is also said to have a “Kikkur”. Kaf is used to build the words for skullcap, window gable and hole in rock. The skullcap is the dividing line between god and man; the window gable is dividing line between wall and window; the hole in rock is dividing line or palm of God holding Yonah (Dove) the messenger/spirit of god.

Another word that seems to be derived from the same mythical origin is cicada. The story of King Kekrops seems to be the cicada emerging from the earth as symbology for the Greek origin myth. The cicada appears on the Omphalos as a prophet of god emerging from the covering of Ghe.
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Re: Manna

Postby falasha » Sat 31 Jul 2010 9:23 pm

Dan_ad_nauseam wrote:
falasha wrote:You copied your etymology from "Online Etymology" and I copied mine from "Wiki Diminutive". I think wiki is right.

Dan has Colombe wrong.


Cite, please. I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for "diminutive" and note that none of the words you cite as diminutives bear any citations therefor. Which is par for the course with Wikipedia.


About half way down under "English Diminutives".
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Re: Manna

Postby Dan_ad_nauseam » Sat 31 Jul 2010 9:58 pm

falasha wrote:
Dan_ad_nauseam wrote:
falasha wrote:You copied your etymology from "Online Etymology" and I copied mine from "Wiki Diminutive". I think wiki is right.

Dan has Colombe wrong.


Cite, please. I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for "diminutive" and note that none of the words you cite as diminutives bear any citations therefor. Which is par for the course with Wikipedia.


About half way down under "English Diminutives".


Yes, and no evidence is cited for any of them. The full list of sources for the Online Etymology Dictionary is cited at http://www.etymonline.com/sources.php.
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