Hangeul for Spanish

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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby linguoboy » Wed 16 Jun 2010 4:12 pm

telal wrote:i'm not sure that hangul works very well for any language that has even a moderately complex syllable structure

Since Spanish syllables are maximally Cj/wVC, it should work fine. The difficulties come only from the use of digraphs. These wouldn't be necessary if we didn't need to rely on pre-existing jamo and could freely use obsolete characters (e.g. ㅿ) or add diacritics to existing ones.
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Remd » Wed 16 Jun 2010 5:45 pm

Since Spanish syllables are maximally Cj/wVC, it should work fine.


Well, there are syllables more complex than that, for example CCVCC (as in TRANSformar), but I think we have solved it using 으 for consonants without a vowel. Although it could be solved in a possibly better way if we could use freely consonant jamos together.
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby telal » Thu 17 Jun 2010 10:11 pm

linguoboy wrote:Since Spanish syllables are maximally Cj/wVC, it should work fine. The difficulties come only from the use of digraphs. These wouldn't be necessary if we didn't need to rely on pre-existing jamo and could freely use obsolete characters (e.g. ㅿ) or add diacritics to existing ones.


well, you make a salient point, but you also mention adding diacritics which is more to my point that in its current form hangul does not work well for the more complex of syllable structures

should have clarified in my first post
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby linguoboy » Thu 17 Jun 2010 10:15 pm

telal wrote:well, you make a salient point, but you also mention adding diacritics which is more to my point that in its current form hangul does not work well for the more complex of syllable structures

By "in its current form", do you mean "limiting oneself to pre-existing jamo"? This isn't a limitation of the script, per se, but of the choices of font designers. It's possible to create programmes capable of generating a wider variety of syllablic blocks incorporating only current characters and, indeed, some programmers have created them.
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Neqitan » Sat 19 Jun 2010 1:36 am

I already have my proposal for consonants typed and ready. But I'd like to understand your system completely first (at least as for the consonants, tons of questions on how you write the vowels coming later). I may make some changes.
Remd wrote:
You don't need a key for every consonant cluster at the end of a syllable group. Just type ㄴ... and then ㅎ.

Wo! Thank you! But...it isn't possible to write them together in the onset of a syllable, is it? Because if it isn't, we couldn't write words beginning with ñ (there are few words beginning with ñ, but anyway...)
Yup, I use nya, nye, nyo for these cases:

ñoño 뇮오 "nyonh.o"
There are some things that are unclear to me: how would you write "perro", "año", and "rayita" in your system?

뼃초
I see. I thought that you always forced stressed syllables to be marked with ㅇ: 뼁츠초 or somehting, but I see it's not the case.

Also, do you also mark stress in words that don't have an acute accent in Spanish, but are written with an "open" syllable in Korean? E.g. "pasa": would it be 빠사, or 빠사?
안조
By the way, how would you write <ll> and <ñ> initially? Particularly ñandú, ñiquiñaque, llave, llicta (the latter is the name for the potato dough made in northwestern Argentina and in Bolivia).
차지따.
Oh, I thought you would treat <yi> differently, as I do in my system.
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Remd » Sat 19 Jun 2010 2:21 pm

I see. I thought that you always forced stressed syllables to be marked with ㅇ: 뼁츠초 or somehting, but I see it's not the case.

Nop, I just follow the Spanish rules for accentuation.
Also, do you also mark stress in words that don't have an acute accent in Spanish, but are written with an "open" syllable in Korean? E.g. "pasa": would it be 빠사, or 빠사?

There must be a typo because you have written them the same... I guess you mean that none of the syllables has a consonant in the coda, no, I write them just like that, for example:
Paso: 빠소
Pasó: 빠송
When it has a consonant in the coda, it would be:
Mas: 맛
Más: 망스
By the way, how would you write <ll> and <ñ> initially? Particularly ñandú, ñiquiñaque, llave, llicta (the latter is the name for the potato dough made in northwestern Argentina and in Bolivia).

I write them using 으:
ñandú: 느잔둥
ñiquiñaque: 느지낀자께
llave: 르랖헤
llicta: 르릮따
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Remd » Sat 19 Jun 2010 2:44 pm

BTW, I've been thinking about changing 느자, 느제, 느조 and 느주 to 냐, 녜, 뇨 and 뉴, because I think there is no word in which ña can be confused with nia, and I can't think of a word which contains ñia, ñie, ñio, ñiu (with the diphthong). But then, how could we write ñi?
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby linguoboy » Sat 19 Jun 2010 2:52 pm

Remd wrote:BTW, I've been thinking about changing 느자, 느제, 느조 and 느주 to 냐, 녜, 뇨 and 뉴, because I think there is no word in which ña can be confused with nia, and I can't think of a word which contains ñia, ñie, ñio, ñiu (with the diphthong). But then, how could we write ñi?

Is it that vital a distinction to make? In French, the trigraph ill usually represents [j], but in a handful of words, it's pronounced [il]. And yet somehow the world keeps turning on its axis!
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Remd » Sat 19 Jun 2010 3:23 pm

Yes, well I guess it's not so important if it's only ñi...but I'm used to have ñ as a different letter, so it's just strange, you don't think about companía + ~, but as compañía.
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Re: Hangeul for Spanish

Postby Neqitan » Sat 19 Jun 2010 6:45 pm

Remd wrote:
I see. I thought that you always forced stressed syllables to be marked with ㅇ: 뼁츠초 or somehting, but I see it's not the case.

Nop, I just follow the Spanish rules for accentuation.

Also, do you also mark stress in words that don't have an acute accent in Spanish, but are written with an "open" syllable in Korean? E.g. "pasa": would it be 빠사, or 빠사?

There must be a typo because you have written them the same... I guess you mean that none of the syllables has a consonant in the coda, no, I write them just like that, for example:
Paso: 빠소
Pasó: 빠송
When it has a consonant in the coda, it would be:
Mas: 맛
Más: 망스
Yup, silly typos. I meant 빵사 vs. 빠사.

I think I'm gonna add that then working in such way. It would make learners (if any) to have less problems both reading it and writing it, and going for no distinction (as in my system) is not totally right. :)

Que yo la ame ~ que yo la amé, etc.
Remd wrote:BTW, I've been thinking about changing 느자, 느제, 느조 and 느주 to 냐, 녜, 뇨 and 뉴, because I think there is no word in which ña can be confused with nia, and I can't think of a word which contains ñia, ñie, ñio, ñiu (with the diphthong). But then, how could we write ñi?
Haha, how to deal with initial <ñi> is in fact the current problem with my proposal.
Remd wrote:Yes, well I guess it's not so important if it's only ñi...but I'm used to have ñ as a different letter, so it's just strange, you don't think about companía + ~, but as compañía.
Medial ñi doesn't give any problems of course, so compañía would be <-빦잉->.

About your system, do what you want. I'd like you to retain the 느지- approach though.

Some things I missed in my last post: how do you write the medial four consonant clusters of Spanish? Abstracción, construcción.

As for the standard Microsoft Korean IME + allocated Unicode points, it's easy to write abstracción as final bs is supported: 앖트잨숀 in my system. But the more common nstr, as in instruir, is much trickier as it's not readily supported, so I solved it by writing the <s> and <t> in the same syllable: 콘슽줔숀, 인슽주잊. It's just for æsthetic reasons.

Extraer, explotar, etc. also follow this pattern: 엨슽자엦, 엨슾로탖. For your system it's not an issue since you already have a different letter for /ks/-sounding <x>. I guess they would be 엤뜨차엧, 엤쁘로땇 (please confirm this).
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