New Conlang: Kamalian

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New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Oealu » Tue 25 May 2010 2:12 am

From the creator of Oealu, we bring you... Kamalian! Kamalian is spoken by humans who live in the Kingdom of Kamalia on the Planet Poseidon. Check out the website here:
http://kamalian-language.angelfire.com

Questions? Comments? Critisisms? Seggustions for the website?
Please reply!
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Cthulhu » Tue 25 May 2010 2:48 am

Criticism 1- you spelled 'criticism' wrong :P.

GRAMMAR NAZI AWAAAY!
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Kloiten » Tue 25 May 2010 5:03 am

Cthulhu wrote:Criticism 1- you spelled 'criticism' wrong :P.

GRAMMAR NAZI AWAAAY!


You stole my glory. And, it's kinda funny how the first ad on the Kamalian page was "Fix grammar mistakes"...

As for the language, Cameron, I like the Inuit influence.

What I want to know is how you decided on all of the "oblique cases". (Is that really what they're called? I find the term to be slightly suspicious, but I can't think of a better term.) They seem kind of randomly put together, within a sort of a pattern. Reminds me of how I made agglutinative languages before.

It's also kinda weird, your tenses. I doubt anyone would be so specific in their verb times that they had to have a tense for each time interval of the day. Not only that, the tenses seem to be only by themselves, that is, "im" therefore implies either that it will happen this morning, it is happening this morning, or it happened this morning. If each time interval has a specific tense, I suggest you say that. If the tense ambiguity was intentional, then you have to also say that, because otherwise it isn't clear enough.

Anyways, keep going. I see you haven't finished your grammar, so you have a lot to do.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby linguoboy » Tue 25 May 2010 6:28 pm

Kloiten wrote:[What I want to know is how you decided on all of the "oblique cases". (Is that really what they're called? I find the term to be slightly suspicious, but I can't think of a better term.)

Totally standard grammatical terminology.

It's also kinda weird, your tenses. I doubt anyone would be so specific in their verb times that they had to have a tense for each time interval of the day. Not only that, the tenses seem to be only by themselves, that is, "im" therefore implies either that it will happen this morning, it is happening this morning, or it happened this morning. If each time interval has a specific tense, I suggest you say that. If the tense ambiguity was intentional, then you have to also say that, because otherwise it isn't clear enough.

Kloiten, have a look at some native North American languages. You'll be amazed at some of the fine tense distinctions you can find in them.

I'm not sure I would even consider these "tense" markers as such; they look to me like incorporated time expressions. It would be interesting to compare the corresponding freestanding forms of these markers to see how similar they are.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Oealu » Tue 25 May 2010 10:54 pm

As for the language, Cameron, I like the Inuit influence.


Thankyou very much, I tried to make this a little Inuit-y :)

What I want to know is how you decided on all of the "oblique cases". (Is that really what they're called? I find the term to be slightly suspicious, but I can't think of a better term.) They seem kind of randomly put together, within a sort of a pattern. Reminds me of how I made agglutinative languages before.


Well I first started with the Greenlandic case system, but then, since I want this to be a descriptive language, I decided it could use a few more cases and I added some that I thought necessary (such as Comitative), and withdrew some I thought unneccessary (such as Equative).
And its true what linguoboy said, they called then "oblique cases" on the Greenlandic wikipedia page.

It's also kinda weird, your tenses. I doubt anyone would be so specific in their verb times that they had to have a tense for each time interval of the day. Not only that, the tenses seem to be only by themselves, that is, "im" therefore implies either that it will happen this morning, it is happening this morning, or it happened this morning. If each time interval has a specific tense, I suggest you say that. If the tense ambiguity was intentional, then you have to also say that, because otherwise it isn't clear enough.

Good call on the "this morning" tense. I have revised the grammar an the change has been made to the website. I didnt want to make language too Earth-like (after some huge influence from Greenlandic) so, I used a tense system theat is unfamilliar to most earth languages. Also, it makes verbs more descriptive if you add a more exact time.

Anyways, keep going. I see you haven't finished your grammar, so you have a lot to do.


What else can I add to the grammar? Please tell me so I can make this a Better language.

:D
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Kloiten » Wed 26 May 2010 2:30 am

linguoboy wrote:
Kloiten wrote:[What I want to know is how you decided on all of the "oblique cases". (Is that really what they're called? I find the term to be slightly suspicious, but I can't think of a better term.)

Totally standard grammatical terminology.

Thanks, I needed a push there...

linguoboy wrote:
Kloiten wrote:It's also kinda weird, your tenses. I doubt anyone would be so specific in their verb times that they had to have a tense for each time interval of the day. Not only that, the tenses seem to be only by themselves, that is, "im" therefore implies either that it will happen this morning, it is happening this morning, or it happened this morning. If each time interval has a specific tense, I suggest you say that. If the tense ambiguity was intentional, then you have to also say that, because otherwise it isn't clear enough.

Kloiten, have a look at some native North American languages. You'll be amazed at some of the fine tense distinctions you can find in them.

I'll look into it; I knew that these kinds of tenses existed, but I found it kinda strange for them to number so many, and to be so specific.

linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure I would even consider these "tense" markers as such; they look to me like incorporated time expressions. It would be interesting to compare the corresponding freestanding forms of these markers to see how similar they are.

I was thinking the same thing... Cameron, there's a thing that you may want to add.

Oealu wrote:Well I first started with the Greenlandic case system, but then, since I want this to be a descriptive language, I decided it could use a few more cases and I added some that I thought necessary (such as Comitative), and withdrew some I thought unneccessary (such as Equative).

See, this is what I dislike about conlanging. The author of the language acts like some sort of god deciding where everything would go in the language, just like you decided that the equative is an unnecessary case, despite it being perfectly reasonably and useful. I'm not saying it's bad to be a god because, after all, it is your language and you can do whatever you want with it, but it doesn't make much sense to me to just say "it's like this and this is how it began". I used to do that, but it was always a bit unsatisfying to watch something on the grounds of Esperanto coming around: no life, no natural change. Yes, perhaps I made irregularities to liven up the scene, but they had no history behind them, nothing interesting besides the fact that the language's creator was bored.

Oealu wrote:What else can I add to the grammar? Please tell me so I can make this a Better language.

I think you need to put in more things, like questions, more on the syntax structure, word combination (referring to something like Haqapiŋua’umamux which combines the agent [uma] and the argument [haqap], that is, explain why and how this works... someone toss me a better term than word combination, please), adjective use, a good lexicon, lexicon rules, possible morphological exceptions, derivation, common word usage, colloquial speech and all the fun things that go with it... there's a lot more than that. I know it seems overwhelming to see all of those things, but it's very fun to go through it and address everything.

Cameron, a few suggestions for future languages:
I know that you create cultures along with your languages. Try creating a culture behind a language, and make that culture intertwine with the language. Make it so that the language has a history, albeit synthetic. Think about your words. What did they mean one hundred years ago for the people who speak the language? How did these people decline their nouns, agree their adjectives, and conjugate their verbs? And, even earlier than that, how did they start to do all of that? How did they come up with conjugation? Declension? It's definitely more than a bunch of endings to be unique and convenient. Each ending has a history, which stretches back to ancient times when language was just beginning. If you add these nuances into your language, you will find that the depth and richness of the language is very satisfying.

Also, your languages will be bound to have dialects. Dialects are more profound than just "g is said here instead of ɣ in this corner of the country". Dialects are subtle but vital nuances that separate one people from another. It shows that, for some reason, people pronounce this as that. It shouldn't be just dismissed as an interesting variation, but as a cultural reason.

I know I may have made little sense... try not to go crazy analyzing what I've said! Sometimes I don't understand what I'm saying myself.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby linguoboy » Wed 26 May 2010 3:33 am

Kloiten wrote:I'll look into it; I knew that these kinds of tenses existed, but I found it kinda strange for them to number so many, and to be so specific.

It's unusual, but not unheard of. Washo and Creek, for instance, each have four past tenses ranging from "distant past" to "the night before or earlier the same day". (In Washo, the "distant past" contrasts with a "remembered past" for events within the lifetime of the speaker; for Creek, the "distant past" is any time more than several years ago.)

Kloiten wrote:I think you need to put in more things, like questions, more on the syntax structure, word combination (referring to something like Haqapiŋua’umamux which combines the agent [uma] and the argument [haqap], that is, explain why and how this works... someone toss me a better term than word combination, please)

This is a form of noun incorporation.

It's a good list. Basically, what I would suggest is going through some good descriptive grammars and seeing what they cover. Mark Rosenfelder's site has some excellent models to follow. The more recent the grammar, the more he's tried to incorporate treatment of semantics and pragmatics into the description--something a lot of beginning conlangers don't think to do. As native speakers of English, we all know that "How did you get to be so stupid?" is not an honest inquiry and "Some hot tea would be nice" is an idle statement in some contexts and a command in others. These usages are not universal.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Kloiten » Wed 26 May 2010 6:51 am

linguoboy wrote:
Kloiten wrote:I'll look into it; I knew that these kinds of tenses existed, but I found it kinda strange for them to number so many, and to be so specific.

It's unusual, but not unheard of. Washo and Creek, for instance, each have four past tenses ranging from "distant past" to "the night before or earlier the same day". (In Washo, the "distant past" contrasts with a "remembered past" for events within the lifetime of the speaker; for Creek, the "distant past" is any time more than several years ago.)

That's fascinating. I looked it up... and I thought Kamalian tenses were weird! Imagine having to distinguish how many years ago something happened in a verb ending...

linguoboy wrote:Mark Rosenfelder's site has some excellent models to follow. The more recent the grammar, the more he's tried to incorporate treatment of semantics and pragmatics into the description--something a lot of beginning conlangers don't think to do. As native speakers of English, we all know that "How did you get to be so stupid?" is not an honest inquiry and "Some hot tea would be nice" is an idle statement in some contexts and a command in others. These usages are not universal.


It's amazing how much time and effort Rosenfelder has put into his conlangs. Upon reading his grammars of Verdurian and its origin hundreds of years ago, I at times forgot that it wasn't a grammar of some other terrestrial language. So yes, I second linguoboy's recommendation. Rosenfelder's guide is an irreplaceable tool. It doesn't give too much away and forces the reader to think about the language they are creating. Besides, it's entertaining as well and not bound to be boring.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Oealu » Thu 27 May 2010 1:33 am

Alright, I looked into what you said ans you are right, this language could use a few more grammar aspects. I've added some more "noun incorporation" or "synthesis" to the grammar allong with a few more modalities. I have been working on some dialects, but they are still works in progress. There is one you can see in the Dialects section on the home page called the Puguq dialect. I will continue to update the grammar to make it cover more information.
As for the lexicon, I have chose to do this not in the form of a dictionary, rather by a Vocabulary section on the home page. This is ready to be launched and should be added to the site soon.
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Re: New Conlang: Kamalian

Postby Oealu » Fri 28 May 2010 8:38 pm

Any ideas for new sections for the website? Btw nuumbers section is in the way.
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