How do your languages express the following?...

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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby linguoboy » Thu 20 May 2010 12:54 am

Talib wrote:
Come back when you have a slightly more sophisticated attitude toward linguistic variation.
So what's your opinion of Lower Saxon dialects?

I like 'em. I have a book of short stories written in Low Saxon. I've listened to the Low Saxon lessons produced by Radio Bremen. I'd love to learn more, but it's hard to find materials.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby Talib » Thu 20 May 2010 4:21 am

Really? That's not what you said here.

What makes it even funnier is that Saxon is widely viewed as the worst-sounding of all the German dialects. I was once trapped in a train compartment with four Saxon soldiers and after an hour I was ready to pour acid in my ears. It would've burned less.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby Neqitan » Thu 20 May 2010 6:07 am

dtp883 wrote:Huixuan, may I ask what you mean by native speaker since in your introduction you say that you grew up with Spanish so it comes naturally. This implies to me that you are not native just that you have an adept ability to learn/understand it. Which country do you live in?

Neqitan,
The second part is wrong. It should be:
...hasta que levantó el teléfono
...hasta que levantara el teléfono
not using "antes de + inf." / "antes de que + subj." (In your correction you'd have said "antes de levantar"/"antes de que levantara".)

Why would one use the subjunctive here? Also, the blue part, do you mean you wouldn't use that or you could? Thanks!
Wow, you're right. That was a wildly weird post. I wish I could go back and edit it...

Here you don't use "antes de", but "hasta": "le había llamado (actually I've never heard telefonear) tres veces, hasta que levantó el teléfono".

(And I have no idea why I said "hasta que levantara el teléfono" was an option in this context, although it could be used in other contexts.)
--------------------------------------
Then, unrelated to the correction, I mentioned that you got the use of "antes de" wrong, which is only followed by either an infinitive or "que + subj.", as a rule intrinsic to the expression, it's a question of vocabulary. No matter what context, "antes de" just can't be followed by a verb in the indicative (as you did in *antes de llamó).

You usually use the indicative when the subject of both the main clause and the secondary clause are the same:

(Ella) Antes de quedar embarazada (ella) solía pasearse por aquí a menudo.
Before she got pregnant she used to walk around here frequently.
(Using the subjunctive, rare: (ella) antes de que quedara embarazada (ella) solía pasearse por aquí a menudo)

You usually use the subjunctive when the subject of the main clause is different than the one in the secondary clause:

(Yo) Pensé en darle un regalo antes de que se fuera (él) de regreso a los Estados Unidos, pero al final no lo hice.
I thought on giving him a gift before he went back to the U.S., but in the end I didn't do it.
(With the infinitive, rare in turn: "(Yo) Pensé en darle un regalo antes irse (él) de regreso a los Estados Unidos".)
Talib wrote:
For instance, I say "It needs corrected" instead of "It needs to be corrected" or "It needs correcting". Totally non-standard, but perfectly acceptable in certain spoken varieties.
"It needs corrected"?
Yup, just as people from Madrid say "A mi amiga la di un regalo" (Standard: "a mi amiga le di un regalo"), etc.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby linguoboy » Thu 20 May 2010 1:43 pm

Talib wrote:Really? That's not what you said here.
What makes it even funnier is that Saxon is widely viewed as the worst-sounding of all the German dialects. I was once trapped in a train compartment with four Saxon soldiers and after an hour I was ready to pour acid in my ears. It would've burned less.

SaxonLow Saxon. Duh!
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby Talib » Thu 20 May 2010 6:51 pm

Oh, so it's Upper Saxon you hate. Would you say it's as bad as Pittsburghese is to my ears?
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby linguoboy » Thu 20 May 2010 7:41 pm

Talib wrote:Oh, so it's Upper Saxon you hate. Would you say it's as bad as Pittsburghese is to my ears?

I'm not you, so how would I know?

I do know that this whole line of argumentation is tendentious, as it ignores completely the difference in context between the two comments.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby dtp883 » Fri 21 May 2010 1:20 am

Just to make sure I understand, I'll use a shortened version of your example.

Pensé en darle un regalo antes de irme. (I thought about giving him a gift beforeI left.

Pensé en darle un regalo antes de que se fuera. (I thought about giving him a gift before he left.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby Talib » Fri 21 May 2010 3:50 am

I'm not you, so how would I know?

I do know that this whole line of argumentation is tendentious, as it ignores completely the difference in context between the two comments.
I think I was pretty straightforward about it sounding bad to me. My point is that linguistic taste is something that's entirely subjective and what sounds good to someone might sound awful to another. I don't think there is a problem with acknowledging that I don't like the sound of X language variety. Granted, this might be different if I were talking to a native speaker of this variety.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby linguoboy » Fri 21 May 2010 5:07 am

Talib wrote:I don't think there is a problem with acknowledging that I don't like the sound of X language variety. Granted, this might be different if I were talking to a native speaker of this variety.

That, I think, is the crucial difference here. It's one thing to make a generic statement along the lines of "I don't like X variety" and another to say "The way that you have just told me you speak the language sounds infantile and you should correct it."

Moreover, in case it wasn't obvious from the absurd hyperbole (or do you really think I'd actually destroy my inner ear to avoid hearing to a particular variety?), I was joking when I made that statement. You, by contrast, sound dead serious. That's part of what I mean about context. Even Saxons will make self-deprecating remarks about the way they talk. There's a tradition of Germans mocking each others' way of speaking. They know, for instance, that the easiest way to wind up a speaker of a Lower Alemannic dialect like me is to call it "Swabian". It's all meant in fun. If there's any fun in your statements above, it's escaped me entirely.
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Re: How do your languages express the following?...

Postby Talib » Fri 21 May 2010 11:25 pm

You aren't a native of Pittsburgh, are you? But wherever you're from they must be deadly literalists.
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