Celtic Languages

The place to discuss endangered languages, and efforts being made to revive them.

Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Talib » Fri 22 Jan 2010 12:43 am

Declan wrote:I admit that the tone of my post was rather harsh (and unnecessarily so)
No, I didn't mean to imply that.
My point should have been not to forget that there are vibrant Irish speaking communities both in Ireland and outside, in reality and online.
I'm not sure if any community outside of Ireland can be called vibrant. I know that in Canada at least, Gaelic is dying out.
Personally I like the words of the 20 Year Strategy, to give all inspiration and support to the use of Irish.
When does this date from?
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Dillon D » Fri 22 Jan 2010 2:27 am

Glas wrote:First language Welsh speaker here, constantly trying to improve though.
I'm a bit of a Brythonic fangirl. Once my A-Levels are over I'm going to start learning Cornish seriously, although I can already understand quite a lot of it when written. Hopefully it shouldn't be too difficult to learn and then I'm moving on to Breton!
I do love the Goidelic languages, though. I always thought that people were more interested in those, rather than Brythonic? I think they sound a lot nicer, from what I've heard.



Ok I went through the first page real quick to remind myself of which exactly were Goidelic and which were Brythonic and I'll recap here.

Brythonic:

Welsh/Cymraeg
Cornish/Kernewek
Breton/Brezhoneg

Goidelic:

Scottish/Gàidhlig
Irish/Gaeilge
Manx/Gaelg

Ok allow me to propose my theory on why Goidelics are more popular:

Looking at the list of the Goidelic languages, two of what I would think the three most well known-about languages are there. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge and Cymraeg. Obviously everyone knows about Ireland and Scottland and the fact they have their own languages. And most people know Wales has a language. But what about the Isle of Man with Manx, and Brittany with Breton (who really even knows much about either the Isle of Man or Brittany itself?). So I would think it to be because of the fact that people learn what they know about?

To add to the whole why learn Celtic languages discussion, this is why I personally decided to learn Gaeilge:

1. Heritage. I am Irish and VERY proud of it.

2. I wish interested in studying an out-of-the-ordinary/exotic language. Gaeilge isn't something you hear a lot about when people are talking about learning a language.

3. I was looking for a linguistic challenge. Everything else I've worked on, Spanish, French, German,Russian, etc I didn't find to be too difficult. But Gaeilge is, at least at the moment.
My languages:

Native: English
Semi-fluent: Español
Learning: русский язык, Gaeilge
Learning bit by bit: Deutsch
Dabblings: Français, Italiano, Esperanto
Interests: العربية, עברית, Brezhoneg, Cymraeg
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Dillon D » Fri 22 Jan 2010 2:56 am

Declan wrote:
Dillon D wrote:Thanks for posting this ;) I'm learning Irish. Last time I tried this I wanted to create a conversation group aimed at learning Gaeilge together so we could revive the language.

Maybe the 80 000 or so native speakers of Irish (round up or down depending on your view of the census figures and whether you include fluent non-native speakers) wouldn't be too happy that you want to revive their language? It implies, to me at least, that Irish is dead. While Irish is not thriving as such, it's not dead yet, and it is a bit insulting to those who use Irish as their daily language to refer to it as such.


No I didn't mean to imply it dead. I've read the stats on Wikipedia stating ~350,000 fluent speakers, ~540,000 daily speakers and ~1.8 million who consider themselves proficient in some capacity. But you must admit, those figures are pretty low.

No, as Talib stated, I was referring to making Irish a widely known language, especially as a first language (or even second) for the Irish.
My languages:

Native: English
Semi-fluent: Español
Learning: русский язык, Gaeilge
Learning bit by bit: Deutsch
Dabblings: Français, Italiano, Esperanto
Interests: العربية, עברית, Brezhoneg, Cymraeg
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Declan » Fri 22 Jan 2010 8:08 pm

Talib wrote:I'm not sure if any community outside of Ireland can be called vibrant. I know that in Canada at least, Gaelic is dying out.
That was second-hand. The Gaeltachts in Ireland at least aren't shrinking, which in the case of Irish, is positive for the moment. But there are a good few societies for Irish, all university, Irish speaking pubs in Dublin, that sort of thing.

Talib wrote:When does this date from?

About now. It was published this year. Some information about it.

Dillon D wrote:No I didn't mean to imply it dead. I've read the stats on Wikipedia stating ~350,000 fluent speakers, ~540,000 daily speakers and ~1.8 million who consider themselves proficient in some capacity. But you must admit, those figures are pretty low.

Actually I'd say they are far too high. That would be 1/8 of the population of Ireland speaking Irish every day, which I would say would have to include education to be accurate.

Actually, maybe someone here would have reliable figures. I have heard that Irish has fewer native speakers but more fluent speakers than Welsh, is that so?
Native: English
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Reasonable: German, French
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Talib » Fri 22 Jan 2010 9:06 pm

Looking at the list of the Goidelic languages, two of what I would think the three most well known-about languages are there. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge and Cymraeg.
I'm not so sure about that. Everyone knows what French and German sound like, but I don't think many could identify Gaelic just by looking at it.

But they are at least far better known than Breton and Manx and there are more materials and speakers for both.
I was looking for a linguistic challenge. Everything else I've worked on, Spanish, French, German,Russian, etc I didn't find to be too difficult. But Gaeilge is, at least at the moment.
You didn't think Russian was hard? Really?
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Dillon D » Fri 22 Jan 2010 10:20 pm

Talib wrote:
Looking at the list of the Goidelic languages, two of what I would think the three most well known-about languages are there. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge and Cymraeg.
I'm not so sure about that. Everyone knows what French and German sound like, but I don't think many could identify Gaelic just by looking at it.

But they are at least far better known than Breton and Manx and there are more materials and speakers for both.
I was looking for a linguistic challenge. Everything else I've worked on, Spanish, French, German,Russian, etc I didn't find to be too difficult. But Gaeilge is, at least at the moment.
You didn't think Russian was hard? Really?


Later in the post I extrapolated on that, explaining that I meant that the fact that the languages themselves exist.

Cyrillic, yes. What language I've learned so far, no.
My languages:

Native: English
Semi-fluent: Español
Learning: русский язык, Gaeilge
Learning bit by bit: Deutsch
Dabblings: Français, Italiano, Esperanto
Interests: العربية, עברית, Brezhoneg, Cymraeg
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby linguoboy » Mon 25 Jan 2010 2:45 pm

Dillon D wrote:Looking at the list of the Goidelic languages, two of what I would think the three most well known-about languages are there. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge and Cymraeg.

Okay, pet peeve time here: Gàidhlig and Gaeilge mean exactly the same thing, just in different languages. The former generally refers to Scottish Gaelic and the latter to Irish only because the former is what you use when speaking Scottish Gaelic and the latter when speaking Irish. But the inherent ambiguity is the same as for English Gaelic. If I need to distinguish the two varieties when speaking Irish, I say Gaelainn na hAlbain (lit. "Gaelic of Scotland") and Gaelainn na hÉireann ("Gaelic of Ireland"), respectively. (I don't speak Scottish Gaelic, but if I did I would distinguish them as Gàidhlig na h-Alba and Gàidhlig na h-Èireann.)

[Note: Yes, Gaelainn not Gaeilge because I speak Munster Irish, not Connacht Irish or Standard Irish. And it really gets on my tits when people assume I must mean specifically Munster Irish when I write "Gaelainn". If that's what I mean, I write Gaelainn na Mumhain. See how this works?]

When I'm not speaking Irish, I say "Scottish Gaelic" and "Irish", of course. Anything else would be pretentious. I don't go around saying "Deutsch", "castellano", or "한국말" when what I mean is "German", "Spanish" , or "Korean". Why should the principles suddenly be different when speaking of the Celtic languages?

Declan wrote:Actually, maybe someone here would have reliable figures. I have heard that Irish has fewer native speakers but more fluent speakers than Welsh, is that so?

It's difficult to say in the absence of an objective assessment of "fluency". Pretty much all the data we have on language use is self-reported. It's fairly safe to assume that native-speakers who use the language regularly will be "fluent", but what about non-native speakers? IME, enthusiasts often have pretty generous opinions of their own level of "fluency".
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby Dillon D » Thu 28 Jan 2010 6:10 pm

linguoboy wrote:
Dillon D wrote:Looking at the list of the Goidelic languages, two of what I would think the three most well known-about languages are there. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge and Cymraeg.

Okay, pet peeve time here: Gàidhlig and Gaeilge mean exactly the same thing, just in different languages. The former generally refers to Scottish Gaelic and the latter to Irish only because the former is what you use when speaking Scottish Gaelic and the latter when speaking Irish. But the inherent ambiguity is the same as for English Gaelic. If I need to distinguish the two varieties when speaking Irish, I say Gaelainn na hAlbain (lit. "Gaelic of Scotland") and Gaelainn na hÉireann ("Gaelic of Ireland"), respectively. (I don't speak Scottish Gaelic, but if I did I would distinguish them as Gàidhlig na h-Alba and Gàidhlig na h-Èireann.)

[Note: Yes, Gaelainn not Gaeilge because I speak Munster Irish, not Connacht Irish or Standard Irish. And it really gets on my tits when people assume I must mean specifically Munster Irish when I write "Gaelainn". If that's what I mean, I write Gaelainn na Mumhain. See how this works?]


I shall make note of the distinction :)

But hey now!! You left out something! There are THREE regional dialects, not two :P don't forget about those of us learnin the Ulster Irish
My languages:

Native: English
Semi-fluent: Español
Learning: русский язык, Gaeilge
Learning bit by bit: Deutsch
Dabblings: Français, Italiano, Esperanto
Interests: العربية, עברית, Brezhoneg, Cymraeg
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby linguoboy » Thu 28 Jan 2010 6:53 pm

Dillon D wrote:But hey now!! You left out something! There are THREE regional dialects, not two :P don't forget about those of us learnin the Ulster Irish

Yes, but the Ulster Irish version of the word isn't "Gaeilge" either; it's "Gaeil(i)g" or "Gaedhlag" depending on your pronunciation.
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Re: Celtic Languages

Postby jan.zajec » Wed 17 Mar 2010 7:29 pm

Can I ask you for a big favour? :)
I would like that somebody translate me the following in all six celtic languages.

The Society of Slovenian - Celtic Friendship

Thank you so very much for your efforts!

Slán
Native: slovenščina
Good: English, français, Deutsch
Basic: castellano, italiano, hrvatski, српски, bosanski, црногорски, македонски, polski, русский, magyar, Latina, Ἑλληνική, СЛОВѢНЬСКЪІИ
Wishes: brezhoneg, Kernewek, Gaeilge, Gaelg, Gàidhlig, Cymraeg
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