Altaic languages

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The Altaic family includes...

there is no Altaic family
0
No votes
Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic
4
44%
Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic & Korean
0
No votes
Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean & Japonic
5
56%
other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 9

Re: Altaic languages

Postby VROOR » Fri 11 Dec 2009 2:44 am

Sobekhotep wrote:
VROOR wrote:The Japanese language in its known linguistic histories lacks the trilled-r whilst the Manchu language possesses this pronunciation.

That's not entirely true. A trilled rhotic does occur in Japanese. It's nonstandard, and occurs mostly in Edokko, certain port towns & in fishing villages along the coasts. It also occurs when a speaker, especially male, is angry & is frequently heard in the speech of gangsters in Japanese films & tv.


Thus as per you stated, this trilled-r could be an adoptation from outside influences (fishermen's contacts and actors' adoptation of accents). In other words, the pronunciation might be something else than the original linguistic core.

Sobekhotep wrote:
VROOR wrote:The word love:
Korean Language = sarang
Bahasa Malay = sayang

The word stupid:
Korean Language = babo
Tagalog/Pilipino = bobo
Bahasa Malay = bodoh

The word day:
Korean Language = haru
Bahasa Malay = hari
Ancient Engyptian = heru

Those are surely just coincidences. For vocabulary, it's pointless to compare terms in modern languages; you have to go back & look at old forms of languages. I'm sure Indo-European wasn't built on comparing Russian, Hindi, English, & French, but rather by comparing Old Church Slavonic, Sanskrit, Old Norse, Latin, Ancient Greek, etc.


Of course, we should use archaic vocabularies (in fact, all of those words stated can be traced to archaic usages but, that is not the point of importance); however, I was trying to address the fact that, by vocabularies the theories still cannot be defended.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Remd » Fri 11 Dec 2009 6:55 pm

I don't know about the others, but bobo in Tagalog could possibly come from bobo in Spanish, which certainly doesn't have any relation with Korean or Malay.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby VROOR » Fri 11 Dec 2009 7:44 pm

Remd wrote:I don't know about the others, but bobo in Tagalog could possibly come from bobo in Spanish, which certainly doesn't have any relation with Korean or Malay.


Of course, that is one possible link; however, geographical linguistics can be another possible link. Please consider the following: Tagalog ako←→Bahasa Malay aku, Tagalog ka←→Bahasa Malay kamu.

However, my stance is not about the possible origins of these languages and what-not. I was voicing the defence of the altaic branch cannot rely upon vocabularies and pronunciations.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Sobekhotep » Sat 12 Dec 2009 6:13 am

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:But what about geography? All of the proposed Altaic languages are spoken in close geographic proximity to each other; Basque, Sardinian & them Australian languages are spoken far, far away.
Barring evidence of a genetic relationship, that's a good argument for areal influence.

To me, it seems like too strong of a trait to be debunked as areal influence. Also, if you look at other nearby languages such as the Ainu & Paleosiberian languages, rhotics are found as word intials.

VROOR wrote:defence of the altaic branch cannot rely upon vocabularies and pronunciations.

Admittedly, there's not much strong vocabulary correspondence between the proposed Atlaic branches. But phonology I think is a stronger case because of the aforementioned lack of word initial rhotic & also because of vowel harmony, lack of large consonant clusters (except in Mongolian), & also complementary distribution of velars & uvulars (except in Japonic & Korean, which don't have uvulars). But I think the grammar is also a strong case. The grammar of all the proposed Altaic languages is very similar, especially if we envision an imaginary isogloss with Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic on 1 side while Korean & Japonic are on the other.

But, hey, I'm not trying to convince everyone that Altaic is real. I'm just trying to show everyone why I think it's a believable proposal.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Talib » Sat 12 Dec 2009 7:01 am

Sobekhotep wrote:To me, it seems like too strong of a trait to be debunked as areal influence.
Why not? Tones are an integral part of the Vietnamese language, yet it didn't even have them before Chinese influence.
VROOR wrote:Admittedly, there's not much strong vocabulary correspondence between the proposed Atlaic branches. But phonology I think is a stronger case because of the aforementioned lack of word initial rhotic & also because of vowel harmony, lack of large consonant clusters (except in Mongolian), & also complementary distribution of velars & uvulars (except in Japonic & Korean, which don't have uvulars). But I think the grammar is also a strong case. The grammar of all the proposed Altaic languages is very similar, especially if we envision an imaginary isogloss with Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic on 1 side while Korean & Japonic are on the other.

But, hey, I'm not trying to convince everyone that Altaic is real. I'm just trying to show everyone why I think it's a believable proposal.
I think you need systemic correspondences in the basic vocabulary of a language (ie. a Swadesh list or the like) to demonstrate genetic relationship, because that's the part of language most resistant to change and borrowing.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Sobekhotep » Sat 12 Dec 2009 7:36 am

VROOR wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:
VROOR wrote:The Japanese language in its known linguistic histories lacks the trilled-r whilst the Manchu language possesses this pronunciation.

That's not entirely true. A trilled rhotic does occur in Japanese. It's nonstandard, and occurs mostly in Edokko, certain port towns & in fishing villages along the coasts. It also occurs when a speaker, especially male, is angry & is frequently heard in the speech of gangsters in Japanese films & tv.


Thus as per you stated, this trilled-r could be an adoptation from outside influences (fishermen's contacts

Well, remember, Japan was relatively isolated from the rest of the world for centuries. It's not like Japanese fishermen were constantly hearing the powerful trills of Russians & Arab traders.

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:To me, it seems like too strong of a trait to be debunked as areal influence.

Why not? Tones are an integral part of the Vietnamese language, yet it didn't even have them before Chinese influence.

True, but Vietnam was ruled by China for a millenium, during which written Chinese was the sole official language.
Japan was never conquered by the Mongols. And again, I have to bring up the relative isolation of Japan from the rest of Asia. The Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, & Korean speakers were all very close but none of them, apart from perhaps ancient Korean peoples who came to Japan, were constantly in contact with Japan.

Talib wrote:I think you need systemic correspondences in the basic vocabulary of a language (ie. a Swadesh list or the like) to demonstrate genetic relationship, because that's the part of language most resistant to change and borrowing.

But what if Altaic is the exception to the rule? :D And what about grammar? Grammar is even more resistant to borrowing than vocabulary.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Talib » Sat 12 Dec 2009 8:05 am

Japan was never conquered by the Mongols. And again, I have to bring up the relative isolation of Japan from the rest of Asia. The Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, & Korean speakers were all very close but none of them, apart from perhaps ancient Korean peoples who came to Japan, were constantly in contact with Japan.
Didn't that isolation begin in the Edo period? Japanese is a lot older than that.
And what about grammar? Grammar is even more resistant to borrowing than vocabulary.
Is it? I thought languages influenced each other's grammar all the time. Look at Arabic shifting to SVO word order, or Indonesian using measure words.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby VROOR » Sat 12 Dec 2009 8:25 pm

Talib wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:To me, it seems like too strong of a trait to be debunked as areal influence.
Why not? Tones are an integral part of the Vietnamese language, yet it didn't even have them before Chinese influence.


Actually, there are theories of which state the ancient chinese language lacked tones and, were polysyllabic. Thus, the change to monosyllabic tonal language can, be a self-devolopement as well as an outside influence from somewhere else.

Talib wrote:
VROOR wrote:Admittedly, there's not much strong vocabulary correspondence between the proposed Atlaic branches. But phonology I think is a stronger case because of the aforementioned lack of word initial rhotic & also because of vowel harmony, lack of large consonant clusters (except in Mongolian), & also complementary distribution of velars & uvulars (except in Japonic & Korean, which don't have uvulars). But I think the grammar is also a strong case. The grammar of all the proposed Altaic languages is very similar, especially if we envision an imaginary isogloss with Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic on 1 side while Korean & Japonic are on the other.

But, hey, I'm not trying to convince everyone that Altaic is real. I'm just trying to show everyone why I think it's a believable proposal.
I think you need systemic correspondences in the basic vocabulary of a language (ie. a Swadesh list or the like) to demonstrate genetic relationship, because that's the part of language most resistant to change and borrowing.


...you know, that text was not written by me. Please quote the correct author.

Sobekhotep wrote:But I think the grammar is also a strong case. The grammar of all the proposed Altaic languages is very similar, especially if we envision an imaginary isogloss with Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic on 1 side while Korean & Japonic are on the other.


There are similarities in grammar between Japanese and Manchurian:

Manchurian bi oci manju niyalma inu (I'm Manchurian)
Japanese watashi wa nihonjin desu (I'm Japanese)

But if shall we accept this grammarical similarities as the altaic link, how would we explain the same grammar existed within classical chinese:

中原人是也 (I'm from the Central China/I'm Central Chinese)

Sobekhotep wrote:But, hey, I'm not trying to convince everyone that Altaic is real. I'm just trying to show everyone why I think it's a believable proposal.


I am not against your views, I am just stating some issues in the defences of the theories.
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Sobekhotep » Sun 13 Dec 2009 5:12 am

Talib wrote:
Japan was never conquered by the Mongols. And again, I have to bring up the relative isolation of Japan from the rest of Asia. The Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, & Korean speakers were all very close but none of them, apart from perhaps ancient Korean peoples who came to Japan, were constantly in contact with Japan.
Didn't that isolation begin in the Edo period? Japanese is a lot older than that.

During ancient & classical times, the only people Japan had consistent relations with were Chinese & Korean civilizations. They had little or no contact with Turkic, Mongolic or Tungusic speaking peoples.

VROOR wrote:Actually, there are theories of which state the ancient chinese language lacked tones and, were polysyllabic. Thus, the change to monosyllabic tonal language can, be a self-devolopement as well as an outside influence from somewhere else.

I was under the impression that Chinese developed tone under influence from the Hmong-Mien languages.

OK, so I'll provide a summary of all the "circumstantial evidence" for Altaic that I can think of.
Phonology
-vowel harmony found in every branch except, perhaps, for Japonic
-rhotic phonemes do not begin native words in any branch
-a system of complementary distribution for velar & uvular plosives & fricatives is found in Mongolic, Tungusic, & in some Turkic languages
Grammar
-SOV syntax found in every language
-all languages are agglutinative & strictly suffixing
-a case system with nominative unmarked in Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic; a system of "particles" found in Korean & Japonic
-no articles
-no grammatical gender
-no distinction of singular & plural, except for animate nouns & pronouns; the suffixes used to show plural have similarities: compare Japanese -ra with Uzbek -lar & Tuvan -ler; Japanese -tachi, Korean -deul, Kazakh -dar
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Re: Altaic languages

Postby Talib » Sun 13 Dec 2009 7:24 am

Sobekhotep wrote:OK, so I'll provide a summary of all the "circumstantial evidence" for Altaic that I can think of.
Phonology
-vowel harmony found in every branch except, perhaps, for Japonic
-rhotic phonemes do not begin native words in any branch
-a system of complementary distribution for velar & uvular plosives & fricatives is found in Mongolic, Tungusic, & in some Turkic languages
Grammar
-SOV syntax found in every language
-all languages are agglutinative & strictly suffixing
-a case system with nominative unmarked in Turkic, Mongolic & Tungusic; a system of "particles" found in Korean & Japonic
-no articles
-no grammatical gender

-no distinction of singular & plural, except for animate nouns & pronouns; the suffixes used to show plural have similarities: compare Japanese -ra with Uzbek -lar & Tuvan -ler; Japanese -tachi, Korean -deul, Kazakh -dar
As far as I know these same traits are found in Uralic.
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