Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby kaenif » Tue 08 Dec 2009 11:53 am

VROOR wrote:The Standard Chinese Language does not have borrowings from dialects, it is the other way around. All native speakers of the chinese language speak the Standard Chinese Language with their own dialectal influences (be it vocabularies or pronunciation, or even both).

I don't really get the post.
Do you mean SCL = Putonghua, or written Baihua?

Just because it is "standard" does not mean that it does not borrow. If some words from other dialects become more and more popular, they become "standard".
Can you recognise this character?
Nope, it's not shāng. It is a 囧 with a hat which 囧ed its chin off!
囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧!
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby linguoboy » Tue 08 Dec 2009 4:39 pm

VROOR wrote:Do you understand the Chinese language and culture? I dare to conclude your command of the chinese linguistic culture is limited. Beijing has long since been populated and visited by Cantonese as well as dialectal films in Cantonese are popular there from many years. It is of no shock that, Beijingers can understand the dialectal term from Cantonese but, in turn, they themselves do not use the Cantonese dialectal term in their own Beijing dialect. Understanding another dialect's term is NOT equal to adopting those terms into one's own dialect.

I dare say you're correct about my limited understanding. However, that doesn't change the fact that I heard Beijingren use originally Cantonese words (although with Mandarin pronunciation) like 的士 and 埋單 while I was there.

There's not a standard language in the world that doesn't enrich itself with borrowings from related dialects. I don't see why you think Standard Chinese would be an exception.
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby VROOR » Tue 08 Dec 2009 8:57 pm

linguoboy wrote:I dare say you're correct about my limited understanding.


既然閣下對漢語的認知有限,您認為您這些外行人的觀點合理嗎?

Since your knowledge and understand of the chinese linguistic culture is limited. Do you honestly believe your unknowledgeable claims are valid?

linguoboy wrote:However, that doesn't change the fact that I heard Beijingren use originally Cantonese words (although with Mandarin pronunciation) like 的士 and 埋單 while I was there.


閣下又是如何知道與確認那些人是道地的「北京人」,而不是正巧在說「普通話」的「奧客」呢? 您又是如何知道他們的發音是道地的「北京腔」,而不是「廣東腔」呢? 對於您這樣的外行洋仔,能真正理解漢語多種方言的腔調,是不可能的事。

And who said those people are beijingers? You? Just because they speak the Standard Chinese, they are beijingers? All Chinese can speak the Standard Chinese. Yet you failed to conclude those could be Cantonese in Beijing just happened to be speaking the Standard Chinese. How could you tell their accent is the beijing accent and not the canton accent? Note that, accents are NOT the same with pronunciations.

linguoboy wrote:There's not a standard language in the world that doesn't enrich itself with borrowings from related dialects. I don't see why you think Standard Chinese would be an exception.


Because, the Standard Chinese is an exception to the rule which you claimed above. Like I have stated before, we the chinese speak the conlang dialect known as the Standard Chinese each with our own dialectal influences (be the influences on vocabularies and/or pronunciations), and NOT vise versa.

Our own dialectal influences were not and are not (perhaps, will not) accepted into the Standard Chinese of which, all the textbooks and media published in the Standard Chinese will thus lack the dialectal usages, unless they are materials for studying the dialects. Thus, the Standard Chinese itself lacks dialectal borrowings (the borrowings practised by a few individuals does not speak for the entire language/dialect), it is the speakers themselves who will add their own dialectal influences.
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby VROOR » Tue 08 Dec 2009 9:10 pm

kaenif wrote:
VROOR wrote:The Standard Chinese Language does not have borrowings from dialects, it is the other way around. All native speakers of the chinese language speak the Standard Chinese Language with their own dialectal influences (be it vocabularies or pronunciation, or even both).

I don't really get the post.
Do you mean SCL = Putonghua, or written Baihua?

Just because it is "standard" does not mean that it does not borrow. If some words from other dialects become more and more popular, they become "standard".


用漢文交談吧。 我們都是中國人,無需用洋仔的語言。 關於您的疑問,請您查證教課書以及相關教材,會去用方言用詞嗎? 就算是會用到,那也都是方言教材中才用的。 我們呀,自己說「普通話」時會不自覺的去用,自己方言的用詞與發音。 但是,這可不代表「普通話」本身就收納了我們自己方言的用詞。 這樣子說,您懂了嗎? 「普通話」中的方言用詞,是我們自己放進去的,而不是「普通話」借用的。
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby linguoboy » Tue 08 Dec 2009 9:50 pm

VROOR wrote:
linguoboy wrote:However, that doesn't change the fact that I heard Beijingren use originally Cantonese words (although with Mandarin pronunciation) like 的士 and 埋單 while I was there.

And who said those people are beijingers? You? Just because they speak the Standard Chinese, they are beijingers? All Chinese can speak the Standard Chinese. Yet you failed to conclude those could be Cantonese in Beijing just happened to be speaking the Standard Chinese. How could you tell their accent is the beijing accent and not the canton accent? Note that, accents are NOT the same with pronunciations.

Because I can hardly think of two Chinese accents more distinct than the Beijing accent and the Canton accent. I mean, one uses more retroflex sounds than any other variety of Chinese; the other lacks them completely. You don't need to be remotely fluent in Chinese to hear the difference.

VROOR wrote:Because, the Standard Chinese is an exception to the rule which you claimed above. Like I have stated before, we the chinese speak the conlang dialect known as the Standard Chinese each with our own dialectal influences (be the influences on vocabularies and/or pronunciations), and NOT vise versa.

胡說八道! Standard Chinese is a standard dialect like any other. They all influence the local dialects in the areas in which they are spoken and are influenced by them in turn.

VROOR wrote:Our own dialectal influences were not and are not (perhaps, will not) accepted into the Standard Chinese of which, all the textbooks and media published in the Standard Chinese will thus lack the dialectal usages, unless they are materials for studying the dialects. Thus, the Standard Chinese itself lacks dialectal borrowings (the borrowings practised by a few individuals does not speak for the entire language/dialect), it is the speakers themselves who will add their own dialectal influences.

If that's true, then how come the version of Standard Chinese I learned from Taiwanese textbooks doesn't match the version taught in PRC textbooks? Do you really think Standard Chinese was codified once and for all by Lu Xun and hasn't changed since?
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby VROOR » Tue 08 Dec 2009 10:14 pm

linguoboy wrote:Because I can hardly think of two Chinese accents more distinct than the Beijing accent and the Canton accent. I mean, one uses more retroflex sounds than any other variety of Chinese; the other lacks them completely. You don't need to be remotely fluent in Chinese to hear the difference.


很遺憾的是你自以為能分辨「北京腔」與「廣東腔」,卻不知道「廣東腔」只有在使用「奧語」時才會如你所言的,那樣明顯。 因此,漢語水平不好的洋仔,還是不要太狂妄自稱能聽出「普通話」使用者的腔調。

linguoboy wrote:胡說八道! Standard Chinese is a standard dialect like any other. They all influence the local dialects in the areas in which they are spoken and are influenced by them in turn.


好,好,好! 算你這洋仔他媽的有種,現在要用漢語嗆腔了,是吧? 你這洋王八就給種的說呀! 「普通話」是中國什麼地區的方言? 啥個東西,洋傻逼自己還真以為懂漢語文化了? 本大爺給你好說不聽,是要用罵的才懂是嗎? 屎崽子搞清楚點,「普通話」是一個人造的「官方用語」(因此,也稱之為「官話」)。 漢語的「自然方言」中根本就沒有「普通話」!

linguoboy wrote:If that's true, then how come the version of Standard Chinese I learned from Taiwanese textbooks doesn't match the version taught in PRC textbooks? Do you really think Standard Chinese was codified once and for all by Lu Xun and hasn't changed since?


台灣這兒的「漢語通用語」是叫「國語」,不是「普通話」。 傻逼你懂了沒? 「台灣國語」和「普通話」是不一樣的:用詞不同,發音與語法也不同。 懂了不,洋逼? 原來你這洋王八根本沒學過「普通話」,你他媽的還敢來在太歲頭上動土! 勸你先滾回去學好「普通話」再說吧! 啥個東西,還把「國語」和「普通話」混淆!
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby linguoboy » Wed 09 Dec 2009 2:55 am

VROOR wrote:我們都是中國人,無需用洋仔的語言。

No, we're not all Chinese. This discussion began in "foreigner talk" so the polite thing to do would be to continue it in English. That way anyone on the forum who's interested in it could follow along and not just a select few. Or perhaps you don't want anyone else to see the kind of rude and coarse language you've chosen to use. Is that it?
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby VROOR » Wed 09 Dec 2009 5:50 pm

linguoboy wrote:
VROOR wrote:我們都是中國人,無需用洋仔的語言。

No, we're not all Chinese. This discussion began in "foreigner talk" so the polite thing to do would be to continue it in English. That way anyone on the forum who's interested in it could follow along and not just a select few. Or perhaps you don't want anyone else to see the kind of rude and coarse language you've chosen to use. Is that it?


That massage was addressed to kaenif and not to you nor anyone else. Since kaenif and I are both knowledgeable of the chinese language, I suggested that kaenif can simply use Chinese with me when we converse with each other personally. Again, your limited understanding of the language has failed you and, made you misinterprated my massage of which did not address to you.

As for my usage of rude terms, I have nothing to hide them from (after all, a lot of people can understand Chinese here, not to mention those who visit here without memberships). My rude remarks are a response to your insult addressed to me (in other words, it was you who started the ordeal). Just in case you do not understand the culture, the phrase 「胡說八道!」is a very strong insult of which, it is not about asking for an attack, the phrase itself is a verbal attack.

Thus stated, I stood on my own dignity to fire-back at you. My philosophy is a simple one: Attack me then I will attack back; respect me then I will respect back, apologise to me then I will in turn apologise. That is that.
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby linguoboy » Wed 09 Dec 2009 6:25 pm

VROOR wrote:That massage was addressed to kaenif and not to you nor anyone else.

If it's only for kaenif to read, why post it in a public forum rather than messaging him directly? Side conversations in a language most people can't read are generally considered bad form in forums like this one. If you want to have a conversation exclusively in Chinese, perhaps you should start one somewhere else.
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Re: Hello! Nen! 你们好! Hola! Bonjour! Suilad!

Postby VROOR » Wed 09 Dec 2009 6:33 pm

linguoboy wrote:If it's only for kaenif to read, why post it in a public forum rather than messaging him directly?


You do have a very good point there and, I see it as my own fault as failing messaging kaenif privately.

linguoboy wrote:Side conversations in a language most people can't read are generally considered bad form in forums like this one.


And for that I apologise.

linguoboy wrote:If you want to have a conversation exclusively in Chinese, perhaps you should start one somewhere else.


Thus stated, shall you desire to continue our conversation. Please continue in the "Chinese Thread" within the LOTE section.
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