Manju gisun

The place to use Languages other than English (LOTE) to discuss whatever you like.

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Fri 04 Dec 2009 2:34 pm

Sobekhotep wrote:I highly recommend that you learn the IPA. It's very useful & not that difficult to learn.


It is not the issue of difficulties. I only learn what I need and/or what I want of which, I do not have any desires as of yet to acquire a valid understanding of the IPA.

Sobekhotep wrote:I'll describe what I transcribed. The 1st syllable is a voiceless palato-alveolar affricate followed by a long close-mid back rounded vowel. The 2nd syllable is a voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative followed by an open central unrounded vowel & a dental nasal.


I must apologise that, I still fail to understand the sounds you try to explain. Basically, the word 【ᠴᠣᠣᠰᡳᠶᠠᠨ】coosiyan sounds similar to the chinese mandarin words of "超鮮".
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Sat 05 Dec 2009 2:05 pm

To saiyvn or not to saiyvn, 'tis sain question:

Amongst the present-day Manchurians, one immediate issue is how would one greet another in the manchu language. Besides the popular 【ᠰᡳ ᡥᠣᠵᠣ ᠨᡳᠣ】si hojo nio?, we also use 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠶᡡᠨ】si saiyvn?. There are also those who would use 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】si sain instead of 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠶᡡᠨ】si saiyvn.

There are much debates upon the usage of 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】si sain be valid or nay. Those who oppose its usage claim the phrase is grammarically incorrect and, such a claim does have a point; however, 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】si sain is a phrase-loan from the chinese language (你好). The phrase 【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠶᡡᠨ】si saiyvn however, is a shortened form of 【ᠰᡳᠨᡳ ᠪᡝᠶᡝ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ ᡳᠨᡠ ᠨᡳᠣ】sini beye sain inu nio?.
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

Re: Manju gisun

Postby Sobekhotep » Sun 06 Dec 2009 1:33 am

VROOR wrote:【ᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠶᡡᠨ】si saiyvn.

Out of the following possible responses to that, would any be incorrect or unidiomatic?
-【ᠪᡳ ᡠᠮᡝᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(bi umesi sain)
-【ᡠᠮᡝᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(umesi sain)
-【ᠪᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(bi sain)
-【ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(sain)
ለሐዘበ ፡ ዘየደአ
User avatar
Sobekhotep
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Sun 19 Apr 2009 4:53 am
Location: America's Dairyland

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Sun 06 Dec 2009 3:21 pm

Sobekhotep wrote:Out of the following possible responses to that, would any be incorrect or unidiomatic?
-【ᠪᡳ ᡠᠮᡝᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(bi umesi sain)
-【ᡠᠮᡝᠰᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(umesi sain)
-【ᠪᡳ ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(bi sain)
-【ᠰᠠᡳᠨ】(sain)


They are all correct.
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

Re: Manju gisun

Postby Neqitan » Sun 06 Dec 2009 8:23 pm

VROOR wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:I highly recommend that you learn the IPA. It's very useful & not that difficult to learn.


It is not the issue of difficulties. I only learn what I need and/or what I want of which, I do not have any desires as of yet to acquire a valid understanding of the IPA.

I think you'd find it useful to read linguistic literature on the reconstruction of Manchu pronunciation for the 17th-18th centuries, since Manchuist (?) linguists would use either IPA or some 1:1 equivalent to it, or maybe more stuff on the Tungusic family.
User avatar
Neqitan
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri 17 Apr 2009 9:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Sun 06 Dec 2009 8:57 pm

Neqitan wrote:I think you'd find it useful to read linguistic literature on the reconstruction of Manchu pronunciation for the 17th-18th centuries, since Manchuist (?) linguists would use either IPA or some 1:1 equivalent to it, or maybe more stuff on the Tungusic family.


I study the manchu language from first-hand pronunciations of my Manchurian elders and peers. As for the pronunciation of classical Manchurian and the dialects, we have documented materials for those studies of which, are recorded in a notation based on the manchu script. That stated, the classical pronunciation of the manchu language does not need to be reconstructed, we have known for a long time how it is pronounced and, many of us still use the classical pronunciation instead of the dialectal variations.
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

Re: Manju gisun

Postby Neqitan » Sun 06 Dec 2009 9:42 pm

VROOR wrote:I study the manchu language from first-hand pronunciations of my Manchurian elders and peers.

That's quite cool!
As for the pronunciation of classical Manchurian and the dialects, we have documented materials for those studies of which, are recorded in a notation based on the manchu script. That stated, the classical pronunciation of the manchu language does not need to be reconstructed, we have known for a long time how it is pronounced and, many of us still use the classical pronunciation instead of the dialectal variations.

The problem with notation in normal scripts is that the pronunciations of the letters of said notation evolve over time as well. So unless you have a notation based on linguistic principles like IPA or its ciphers are, then what you're doing is pronouncing old words with modern phones, instead of the best approximations we can get of the old phones... This is why necessarily all non-modern pronunciations must be reconstructions.
User avatar
Neqitan
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri 17 Apr 2009 9:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Sun 06 Dec 2009 10:03 pm

Neqitan wrote:The problem with notation in normal scripts is that the pronunciations of the letters of said notation evolve over time as well. So unless you have a notation based on linguistic principles like IPA or its ciphers are, then what you're doing is pronouncing old words with modern phones, instead of the best approximations we can get of the old phones... This is why necessarily all non-modern pronunciations must be reconstructions.


Unlike many languages of which you yourself might have encountered, the manchu language remained as it was when the spelling and letters was frozen. Thus, all the letters pronounced today are actually how they were pronounced hundreds of years ago. The sounds of the letters did not change because the purity mindset kept that intact; however, the language itself surely would change of which the pronunciation of words would also be changed.

What happened to the manchu language is a very odd case of linguistics. On one side we have a group of people who would not sway the spellings to be updated, and yet, with the pronunciation of words changing day-by-day. Those who do change the spellings went solo and departed from the main manchurian body, such as the Sibe. However, the modern manchu language is not always pronounced as it is written. We write in the spellings of yesterday but, pronounce the words as they are pronounced today.

Of course, one may argue that, the letters themselves would have been changed over time. This is linguistically true but, such rarely happen in a short time. There were records in the manchu language of the era they were written of which, documented the language of the era prior to the documents (such as classical dictionaries). These records revised themselves and then updated themselves from time to time, and thus, the old pronunciation was never lost to modern Manchurians.

Also, I am not lacking a modern liguistic notation besides the manchu script. I merely use the system popular amongst the chinese tungusic linguists, and thus, I have not yet acquired the IPA and X-Sampa. Of course, one then may remark this situation of mine is making me blind to all the western goodies. I might be missing out, then again, I might not. Nevertheless, one wishes to sway me into learning the IPA, then fine it is, I will acquire its knowledge. Thus, case closed.
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

Re: Manju gisun

Postby Sobekhotep » Wed 09 Dec 2009 1:55 am

What kind of word stress does Manchu have? I can't seem to find a description of the stress system for Manchu.
ለሐዘበ ፡ ዘየደአ
User avatar
Sobekhotep
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Sun 19 Apr 2009 4:53 am
Location: America's Dairyland

Re: Manju gisun

Postby VROOR » Wed 09 Dec 2009 5:56 pm

Sobekhotep wrote:What kind of word stress does Manchu have? I can't seem to find a description of the stress system for Manchu.


The stress of the manchu language usually (but not always) falls upon the first syllable.
Image
ImageImage
User avatar
VROOR
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
Location: Taiwan (R.O.C)

PreviousNext

Return to Languages other than English

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest