What are you?

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What are you?

Herbivore/Vegan
0
No votes
Herbivore/Vegetarian
4
27%
Omnivore
11
73%
Carnivore
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 15

Re: What are you?

Postby formiko » Sat 28 Nov 2009 8:57 am

Sobekhotep wrote:
formiko wrote:If I became a vegetarian I think my kids would revolt. Plus, we love bacon. I love bacon so much, small pox wrapped in bacon is fine :)

:lol:
A friend of mine once tried to become a vegetarian but he just couldn't give up bacon! :D
As for me, I'm an omnivore. I eat all meats & fish.


Bacon is like crack to me :) But honestly, organic bacon is mighty expensive, so I just think that if we eat non-organic food, my pregnant wife will give birth to Eraserhead
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Re: What are you?

Postby Delodephius » Sat 28 Nov 2009 10:27 am

dtp883 wrote:Omnivore like nature intended.

You're sure?

Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
OMNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
HUMAN: Small

Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
OMNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
HUMAN: Flattened nails
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Re: What are you?

Postby Delodephius » Sat 28 Nov 2009 11:06 am

What I also find distasteful is that people don't eat some types of meat because they don't like it or find it disgusting, not because they have some sympathy for animals.
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Re: What are you?

Postby dtp883 » Sat 28 Nov 2009 12:27 pm

Delodephius wrote:Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
OMNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
HUMAN: Small

Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Human mouths have evolved over time as can be evident by the stereotypical image as well as fossil record evidence of prehistoric man with a large jaw and large teeth. Around the same time humans learned to control fire, the fossil record shows the shrinkage of tooth size and mouth size. Cooked meat is easier to digest, (as are cooked plants, many of which were indigestible or poisonous before) so the mouth began to shrink; this process hasn't been fully completed which is why wisdom teeth still appear.

Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
OMNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

According to Holt, Rinehart, and Winston's Modern Biology, page 42, the human stomach has a pH level of 2.

Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

While this may be true, it would seem that an omnivore would have a difficult time digesting plant material without first cooking it. In fact humans cannot eat many types of food that other herbivores can such as tree leaves, grass, naturally occurring raw potatoes, and bamboo, etc. The point you seem to be making is that large stomach capacity is better for meat and a smaller one is better for plants. For this to be true humans should be able to eat more raw plant than other herbivores but in reality they cannot.

Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

On average the human small intestine is around 25 feet. The average human is between 5 feet and 6 feet tall. The average man is 5'9''. In the equation 25/5.75=4.35 you can see that humans are actually in the range of carnivore and omnivore.
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

This picture shows the size of both a carnivore's colon and an herbivore's. This one shows an humans which one can see is shorter than an hebivore's but longer than a carnivore's which would be expected of an omnivore that is in between.
Liver

CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by detoxify but the liver can store and dilute vitamin A or else the retinoid pills I took for acne would have killed me.

Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

This can be explained by the strain being lowered with the advent of cooked foods and fire.

Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
HUMAN: Flattened nails

For humans to prosper they evolved their brains and use of tools. You can experience many examples of this by throwing a stone. You ball and joint sockets allow you to pull your arm back and throw the stone forward; thumbs allow you to grasp the stone; hand eye coordination allows you to throw accurately for the most part. No other animal except our closest relatives can achieve this. Humans use tools to hunt and kill animals and also to grow and collect plants.

On top of this chimpanzees, out closest relatives, who are free from our social stigma, religious laws, cultural norms and trends, and mindset, eat meat. In fact female chimpanzees will prostitute themselves for the sole reason of getting meat.

So yes I am sure. Humans have evolved to be omnivores; the reason we eat meat is because our bodies, as our ancestors' did, have become adept to it. Of course it is fine if you want to be vegetarian but for humans it is technically unnatural and almost impossible if we lose the botanical variety that modern society delivers.

Oh yeah, don't copy and paste without credit. :roll:
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Re: What are you?

Postby dtp883 » Sat 28 Nov 2009 12:41 pm

Oh, and if you're a vegetarian for ethical or religious reasons, which is perfectly fine, please do not try to rationalise vegetarianism with nature and anatomy. Let those reasons be your reasons.
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Re: What are you?

Postby Delodephius » Sat 28 Nov 2009 12:56 pm

What you posted is not new to me. I have read similar many times before.

But it is all of a "prophetic" approach to the matter: we can eat meat therefore we should eat meat, otherwise why would we be able to?

An "actualistic" approach would be: what does meat consumption do to our bodies?

Sure, we can eat meat, but we can also not eat meat at all and live long and healthy lives, without any modern supplements or industrialized food. With this in mind the choice of eating meat is a philosophical one, not a biological one. The question is: should we continue with this despotism? Are we really that shallow that we treat other living creatures as objects for our 5 minute of enjoyment?

Oh yeah, don't copy and paste without credit.

I don't remember who wrote that, I don't really care either.
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Re: What are you?

Postby Delodephius » Sat 28 Nov 2009 1:06 pm

dtp883 wrote:Oh, and if you're a vegetarian for ethical or religious reasons, which is perfectly fine, please do not try to rationalise vegetarianism with nature and anatomy. Let those reasons be your reasons.

Ok, regardless of the fact I consider eating meat to be greatly unhealthy I won't bring that up.

I'm also not a homo religious. I'm a homo philosophicus.
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Re: What are you?

Postby dtp883 » Sat 28 Nov 2009 1:39 pm

Delodephius wrote:What you posted is not new to me. I have read similar many times before.

But it is all of a "prophetic" approach to the matter: we can eat meat therefore we should eat meat, otherwise why would we be able to?

Then why post it? It's not like I'm lying. And the question was, am I sure that nature intended us to eat meat. Since our bodies have been made to eat meat whether we like it or not nature intends for us to.


Sure, we can eat meat, but we can also not eat meat at all and live long and healthy lives, without any modern supplements or industrialized food. With this in mind the choice of eating meat is a philosophical one, not a biological one.

I don't believe that is entirely true. Except for a few types of plants you would need a large of variety of plants to have a healthy diet. A diet that would need more land than possible to sufficiently sustain the current world population.If it's not a biological question why post that entire list of biological reasons?

Oh yeah, don't copy and paste without credit.

I don't remember who wrote that, I don't really care either.

It's important to at least acknowledge that something is not entirely yours.

Ok, regardless of the fact I consider eating meat to be greatly unhealthy I won't bring that up.
That's a huge generalisation to make. You can live a lot longer on only beef than you can on only broccoli. A pound of a single meat can sustain you longer than a pound of a single plant. If you are referring to fat content and cholestoral, many types of meat are low or lack those such as fish and skinless poultry.

Anyway, it's okay to be vegetarian for ethical reasons.
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Re: What are you?

Postby Delodephius » Sat 28 Nov 2009 1:47 pm

Since our bodies have been made to eat meat whether we like it or not nature intends for us to.

I reason we can eat meat to survive in cases of greatly dire situations. Otherwise we don't need to. It's like a safety belt.

Then why post it?

I post a lot of things. I don't always (well, to be honest, I mostly don't) think before I post or care later about what I posted when I realize I didn't think about it. In a nutshell: I make a lot of mistakes because I don't think, and when I realize I made a mistake I forget about it. So don't bother asking me why I posted something if it is contradictory to what I am saying now.

A diet that would need more land than possible to sufficiently sustain the current world population.

Actually, we would need less land. Being a farmer I know that meat production takes up more land for growing food for cattle than growing the same amount of food you get from cattle, like more than half of it. We have pigs and a single pig eats more in a day than a human. Hell, when we had a bull he could eat three buckets of grain in a day. Now if you feed them for a year as is usually done, you could survive of that one pig for a year, if you eat nothing but that pig and the food from your garden of course, because that's direct food. Grains in the fields go to the pigs. All in all, if you ate those plants directly without the medium of a pig, cow or a chicken, you would save a lot of money and land. Hence why a kilo of corn costs 10 dinars, a kilo of flour 25 dinars, and a kilo of pork 500 dinars (I checked to be sure).
Last edited by Delodephius on Sat 28 Nov 2009 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What are you?

Postby dtp883 » Sat 28 Nov 2009 1:56 pm

That's a normal thing I'm sure I do it all the time also.

About the safety belt, I'm not so sure. My friend who has been a vegetarian for more than 75% of her life accidentally ate a turkey sandwich (not all of it once she realised, obviously) and after that she threw up twice and was sick the rest of the day. I'm sure some would say it's repulsion but it's more likely her body's inexperience with dealing with meat.

You do make an excellent question, why kill and eat an animal for five minutes of enjoyment when modern society makes it possible not to do so. The part "for five minutes of enjoyment" is what really made me think. That is one of the best arguments I think I've ever heard for vegetarianism.
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