Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

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To: Jeisuke

Postby VROOR » Tue 24 Nov 2009 10:46 am

Jeisuke wrote:With the exception of a few fringe scholars, most serious linguists (especially Japanese) dismiss the historicity of Jindaimoji.


Those denials are not actually made by especially Japanese scholars. Please keep in-mind those Koreans who have both acquired Japanese identities and name. Most of these so-called academic dismissals were formed on racialistic and nationalistic points.

Jeisuke wrote:There are a few modern books on the subject (I will dig up their titles when I return home), but even they are only written for the Koshintoists who still actually believe in Izanami/Izanagi/Amaterazu-Oomikami, etc.


We should not mix religious faith with historical linguistics.

Jeisuke wrote:The (short) reasons why Jindaimoji cannot be authentic are:
1. No demonstrable use before the late 1700s (which is after the Imjin invasion of Korea). King Sejong had produced the Hunmin Jeong'eum in the mid 1400s.


There are evidences in both Mainland China and Japan as well as on the Korean Penisula that, the Jindai Moji has existed predated Hangeul by two thousand years.

Jeisuke wrote:2. By the late 1700s, the Japanese language had changed from that used in the Man'youshu. The Man'yougana used to write names, places and gramatical parts seems to indicated that Japanese at that time had 7 vowels instead of 5 as is recorded in ALL the so-called Jindaimoji scripts (Moritsune, Iyo, Hizin, Ahiru, Awa, etc). If the Jindaimoji was of such antiquity, we would expect to have the alternate "o" and alternate "e" indicated as well. The now-archaic ゐ、ゑ are indicated as would be expected of something produced in the 17~18 century
3. Starting from a syllabry to logographs and then back to a syllabry is not known in any other script evolution.


And says who the Jindai Moji characters are a syllabry? They presume it is a syllabry when the entire Jindai Moji characters are not actually deciphered. Such presumptions are common, but also, likely to be in total error.

Jeisuke wrote: I just wish they weren't so tied to the ultra-nationalist lunatic fringe in Japan.


It's the other-way-round.
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby Jeisuke » Tue 24 Nov 2009 8:01 pm

Where to begin.....
First, starting with sources, the two best and most complete sources for Jindai Moji IMHO are
1 日本神代文字研究原典 by 吾郷清彦(Agou Kiyohiko) - This book has a great analysis of nearly all the Jindai artefacts in Japan and tables of most of the existant Jindai moji syllabaries that have appeared throughout history.
2 幽真界神字集纂 by 大宮司郎 (Oomiya Shirou(?)) - This book is a compellation of older sources, namely 神字日文伝 by 平田篤胤; 神字彙 by 岩崎長世; 嘉永刪定神字文字考 by 鶴峯戊申; 日本古代文字考 by 落合直澄; and 鴻濛字典 by 宮地水位.
Beyond these two books and 3~4 Bunkou paper-back books (Takeuchi chronicles, crystal skull, and how Japanese are actually descended from aliens), I know of no others that specifically address Jindai Moji printed after WW2.

From any of the above sources, they are all inextricably linked to Koshinto. Jindai-moji is part and parcel linked to this, especially as the result of the "Emperor is God" mentality that prevaded Japan form the Meiji Restoration to the end of WW2....so, I fully agree with your statement "We should not mix religious faith with historical linguistics."
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby Jeisuke » Tue 24 Nov 2009 8:26 pm

To continue:
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwo ... tryID=1225 has a very good synopsis on Jindai Moji. Please keep in mind, that it was the Japanese Nationalists who pushed the concept of Jindai Moji as they felt it to be an embarassment that Japan had not developed it's own indigenous script millennia ago. I'm not sure why they didn't just take pride in Kana as it fits the Japanese language very well.
There are evidences in both Mainland China and Japan as well as on the Korean Penisula that, the Jindai Moji has existed predated Hangeul by two thousand years

Please show proof. Indulge my skepticism.
And says who the Jindai Moji characters are a syllabry? They presume it is a syllabry when the entire Jindai Moji characters are not actually deciphered. Such presumptions are common, but also, likely to be in total error.

Umm.....all of the authors who I listed in the previous post and who are the original promoters of Jindaimoji.....Hirata, Iwasaki, Tsurugamine, Ochiai, Miyachi, and others (Takeuchi, Atsutane, etc)...they all list the Jindai-moji in the form of syllabries. Do you know something they didn't?
Granted, there is an eerie similarity to Daoist 霊符 and the squiglier Jindaiji like Ahiru-moji, but that might just be coincidence. Anyway, I look forward to your proof of Jindai Moji's antiquity
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To: Jeisuke

Postby VROOR » Tue 24 Nov 2009 8:38 pm

Jeisuke wrote:Please show proof. Indulge my skepticism.


Please compare the Jindai Moji with the Ancient Chinese Writing known as Jiaguwen. There is a special sample presented by me in this forum, within the thread titled "Show your Calligraphy" or something like that.

Jeisuke wrote:all of the authors who I listed in the previous post and who are the original promoters of Jindaimoji.....Hirata, Iwasaki, Tsurugamine, Ochiai, Miyachi, and others (Takeuchi, Atsutane, etc)...they all list the Jindai-moji in the form of syllabries. Do you know something they didn't?


Ever occured to you that, they might not even understand the language? and from their own nationalism and/or academic prides, they made their claims based on claiming what they actually do not know?

Jeisuke wrote:Granted, there is an eerie similarity to Daoist 霊符 and the squiglier Jindaiji like Ahiru-moji, but that might just be coincidence.


It isn't a coincidence. (Linguistics is just like the Jedi Force, there are no such things as coincidences. There is always an origin, always a factual starting point). The taoistic talismanic writing is based upon the ancient Jiaguwen as well as the seal script (of which, the seal script is based on the Jiaguwen also).

Jeisuke wrote:Anyway, I look forward to your proof of Jindai Moji's antiquity


From what I have stated above, it is pretty obvious now. Jindai Moji is a continuation of Jiaguwen in Japan. forget about the nationalism and religious claims, just focus upon the forms of Jiaguwen and Jindai Moji. Truth to be told, the term "Jindai Moji" was coined by those who are firm on the religious claims, yet it is just another style of ancient Chinese characters.
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby Jeisuke » Tue 24 Nov 2009 9:19 pm

Ever occured to you that, they might not even understand the language? and from their own nationalism and/or academic prides, they made their claims based on claiming what they actually do not know?

Umm....Japanese scholars not understanding Japanese? I have no idea what point you are trying to make? Do you really know what Jindaimoji is as defined in Japan? There are a bunch of Jindaimoji (Hotsuma, Iyo, Koretare) that systematically indicate syllables....What would they have to do with the Jiaguwen which is logographic? Again, the Jindaimoji was promoted in Japan as a syllabry.....not logographs. As such, I don't follow your line of reasoning and what Jianguwen has to do with Jindaimoji

If you are saying Jiaguwen = Jindaimoji, then we are talking about 2 different animals.
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby VROOR » Tue 24 Nov 2009 9:46 pm

Jeisuke wrote:Umm....Japanese scholars not understanding Japanese? I have no idea what point you are trying to make?


My point was already clear in my earlier response to you: jindai moji is not a Japanese creation but, Chinese. The language recorded can possibly be ancient Chinese but, it can be also possible to be ancient Japanese (just like the Vietnamese adopted Chinese Characters).

Jeisuke wrote:Do you really know what Jindaimoji is as defined in Japan? There are a bunch of Jindaimoji (Hotsuma, Iyo, Koretare) that systematically indicate syllables


Those were all the different parts of the same language's characters discovered and/or used by different scholars who claimed those are syllablic writings. Those are characters or parts of characters (which were dismembered and mix-n-matched), not syllables.

Jeisuke wrote:....What would they have to do with the Jiaguwen which is logographic? Again, the Jindaimoji was promoted in Japan as a syllabry.....not logographs. As such, I don't follow your line of reasoning and what Jianguwen has to do with Jindaimoji


That is because you are not seeing the link between Jiaguwen and Jindai Moji. By taking your view, we then can claim the Latin Alphabet is a logograph of which you cannot deny as long as there are scholars support this claim.

Jeisuke wrote:If you are saying Jiaguwen = Jindaimoji, then we are talking about 2 different animals.


Very well, then we are two different animals. No one right, no one wrong; different views and that does us apart. Let us end this topic for now until we both can acquire more beneficial things to share with each other, shall we?
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby imbecilica » Wed 25 Nov 2009 8:53 am

Not to spoil the fun but maybe this debate should be restarted in a new thread. Here we go: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=269
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby VROOR » Wed 25 Nov 2009 12:01 pm

imbecilica wrote:Not to spoil the fun but maybe this debate should be restarted in a new thread.


Since this thread is mine and, I am the one who started this side-topic, I am ending it here as it is. Thank you for pointing it out.
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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby Serali » Sat 28 Nov 2009 4:25 am

:shock:

I'm shocked for one. I don't know what to believe now ( care to straighten me out? )......

Pretty scripties regardless.

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Re: Chữ Nôm ‧字喃

Postby imbecilica » Wed 16 Dec 2009 6:49 am

Me and a few others have been writing some articles on the Chữ Nôm Test Wiki. I translated the Lord's Prayer into Nôm yesterday: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ ... 0%A4%95%94

In order to view the Nôm characters, you may need to install the Hán Nôm fonts A and B. If not, here's an image of it. It's colour coded, Black = Original Chinese character (Hán), Blue = Invented Vietnamese character (Nôm).

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