Lingua Latina

The place to discuss endangered languages, and efforts being made to revive them.

Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Fri 09 Oct 2009 11:25 pm

You're missing the point. If people are doing something they love, it won't seem hard to them, and they will be better at it because it's enjoyable not a chore.

We're speaking from the liberal belief that a society prospers best when people are allowed to do what they want to instead of what other people want them to.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Fri 09 Oct 2009 11:37 pm

I hold to a belief that even though people should be allowed to do what they want they are just too unintelligent to always do things that will make the society prosper, therefore can they be trusted to do things they want and not told what to do?

What have we been programmed from childhood is also very important. I don't like hard work but I love it. It's contradictory, but since as far as I can remember I have been taught that the harder something is the more its value is. Therefore doing something hard is better on by itself. One should suffer in life if he/she wants to live a good life, regardless of the rewards of his labour.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Fri 09 Oct 2009 11:48 pm

I don't agree with your misanthropic views, unfortunately.

But assuming people are too dumb to learn languages on their own and must be forced to, why should they learn something difficult and useless like Old Church Slavonic when they could be learning something difficult and useful like Mandarin.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby linguoboy » Sat 10 Oct 2009 5:01 am

Delodephius wrote:I hold to a belief that even though people should be allowed to do what they want they are just too unintelligent to always do things that will make the society prosper, therefore can they be trusted to do things they want and not told what to do?

Since when is "making society prosper" the highest good imaginable? Frankly a society that forces me to do difficult things I dislike because it considers me too much of a moron to look out for my own best interests doesn't sound like a society I've got any interest in participating in. If it can't convince me of a pursuit's merits through some form of logical argumentation, then it's failed on a fairly basic level.

Delodephius wrote:What have we been programmed from childhood is also very important. I don't like hard work but I love it. It's contradictory, but since as far as I can remember I have been taught that the harder something is the more its value is. Therefore doing something hard is better on by itself. One should suffer in life if he/she wants to live a good life, regardless of the rewards of his labour.

Yeah, I was also taught that putting oneself through suffering was good in and of itself. At some point it dawned on me what an incredibly toxic value system this was and I gave up on Christianity forever.

I still believe firmly in the value of discipline and restraint, but it should always be in the service of a rational objective. It's good to endure some physical suffering if the goal is to train up your body to the point where you can perform enjoyable athletic feats that you couldn't have safely attempted otherwise. But enduring suffering just to prove you can endure suffering is mental.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby dtp883 » Sat 10 Oct 2009 5:30 am

Delodephius wrote:If a language seems hard let's learn one that is easier. For and English speaker that would be Spanish or French (just counting those more international ones and which the bulk of the Anglophone population is familiar with). People prefer what seems easier to them over what seems more complex, from the starting point of their own language(s).

I don't think you should assume things like this. I chose to learn Spanish because the town I like in is 53% White, 46% Latino, and 1% Other, including but not limited to Middle Eastern, Far East Asian, and Indian. 15% of the Latinos only speak Spanish. This means about 7 out of every 100 people, if we can assume every white person speaks English, which probably isn't the case, speak only Spanish. My town, composed of 60,000 people, has roughly 4200 people who speak only Spanish. Obviously, it would not make much sense for me to learn Uzbek, Zulu, or Mongolian.
I personally don't care much about languages that are popular, I'm actually interested in being a scholar of Antiquity and Medieval studies. I have little interest in modern languages, only as the means to read studies about old languages and history.

From what you've said about hard work and being forced to do things that are hard even though you have no interest in them, you want us to be forced learn about YOUR interests, specifically Medieval and Antiquity studies?
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Sat 10 Oct 2009 6:42 am

From what you've said about hard work and being forced to do things that are hard even though you have no interest in them, you want us to be forced learn about YOUR interests, specifically Medieval and Antiquity studies?

How did you conclude that? No, I don't care what you learn. I'm merely saying I don't like the fact people choose what to learn based on the difficulty of the subject they want to learn. Choosing what is easier all the time will in the end result in running away even from the more easier challenges, among other things.

My town, composed of 60,000 people, has roughly 4200 people who speak only Spanish. Obviously, it would not make much sense for me to learn Uzbek, Zulu, or Mongolian.

Why not? After you have done learning these four languages maybe some good will come from them, who knows, maybe not but that is irrelevant. At least you can take pride in knowing four more languages.

Since when is "making society prosper" the highest good imaginable?

Well I can't imagine any higher goods. Making the life better for everyone is more important than for yourself.

But enduring suffering just to prove you can endure suffering is mental.

Maybe.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Sat 10 Oct 2009 7:09 am

Delodephius wrote:Why not? After you have done learning these four languages maybe some good will come from them, who knows, maybe not but that is irrelevant. At least you can take pride in knowing four more languages.
Why can't he learn four languages which are more useful to him and achieve the same results?
Well I can't imagine any higher goods. Making the life better for everyone is more important than for yourself.
You're missing the point. We think allowing individuals to pursue their own goals will be better for them and thus everyone else in the long run. Certainly better than more or less arbitrary goals dictated by some higher authority.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Delodephius » Sat 10 Oct 2009 12:32 pm

Why can't he learn four languages which are more useful to him and achieve the same results?

Well then he can learn those other useful languages besides these four.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Declan » Sat 10 Oct 2009 9:44 pm

I think the worst thing you can do is force someone to learn something, what it is is irrelevant. Nothing fosters hatred more. If one doesn't want to learn something, then they won't master it, or if they do, enjoy it. As Talib and others said, you have to decide what you will learn, and motivate yourself, or it's a waste of time.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby Talib » Sun 11 Oct 2009 4:43 am

Delodephius wrote:Well then he can learn those other useful languages besides these four.
Or he could learn them in the first place and avoid wasting his time.

I don't really see why we should force people to do difficult things just for the hell of it. At the least it could be something difficult but rewarding.
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