Reviving or Restarting Omni

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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby adelgado » Tue 11 Aug 2009 10:54 pm

Kloiten wrote:We should have a standard system of gloss. I'm having trouble understanding yours, adelgado.


Hmm, I thought that could happen. I haven't formally learned anything about glosses, so everything I use I learned surfing the wab. There might be inconsistencies.

Right now, I'm using glosses as follows:

Kete ras lola yo-juno kusey yo-dunak jun tal Omnidos.
But the main reason I'm posting this is to write something in Omni.
but | reason | main | PRES-write.1pS | this | PRES-be.4pI | Omni.INS

I separate each word with pipe (|) characters. I try to use the most 'bare' form of the word in the translation, marking plurals and conjugation with dotted items.

I'm using ABS for absolutive, ADES for adessive, ADV for the adjectival (-i) form of a noun ("ton" > "toni"), FUT for future, PRES for present, PL for plural, PSV por passive; I think I've said them all.

1pS is for first person singular. Second person plural would be 2pP.

Sometimes I underline the main word for clarity. Depends on my mood.

I think this might be a good system to start on. The most important part would be to standarize the dotted stanzas (INS, ABS etc.) so as to not generate ambiguity.

One part I got confused was how to render temporal prefixes such as "yo" or "yal". As in my Omni I use dashes to link them to verbs, I used the same in glossing except that only stating their grammatical function. They don't have a simple semantic interpretation in English...


What about that?
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kietl » Fri 14 Aug 2009 5:57 pm

Hey guys! Just wanted to say that I am all in favor of the wiki. Can't wait to get started on it.
And adelgado, I like your system of gloss--it's simple and I can easily understand it. I think that you've got a good idea with explaining neologisms after each sentence.
Here's my translation of the first two sentences in the UDHR using your gloss system:

Ewelaym edam duos heyra ga unwa for serta ga holop. Lapka ossemay ommeska ga omwaka ga yarne elsonayp laposka dos atal l’foru.

| born.3P.PRES.ALL | person.ALL | be.INF | free | and | equal | about/concerning | dignity | and | right.PL || they.PL.ABS | give.3P.PRES | reason | and | conscience | and | should | act.3P.PRES.PL | they.PL.DEF.ABS | with | spirit | GEN.brotherhood |

(As a caveat, I'm using the synthetic form of Omni here, rather than the more analytic form.)
-I'm using the definite suffix -os as an infinitive suffix for verbs (thus du-os="being").
-Also at the beginning of the second sentence the sequence lapka ossemay is a tentative passive construction using the independent pronoun lap ("they") inflected for the absolutive case (-ka): thus "they are given/endowed".
-Finally, the word laposka is being used as a reflexive pronoun, again using the definite article suffix -os and again inflected for the absolutive case ("themselves/each other").

Kloiten, could you post your poem translation again? I have a lot of the vocabulary from it written down, but not the whole thing.
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kloiten » Fri 14 Aug 2009 6:28 pm

Kietl wrote:Ewelaym edam duos heyra ga unwa for serta ga holop. Lapka ossemay ommeska ga omwaka ga yarne elsonayp laposka dos atal l’foru.

| born.3P.PRES.ALL | person.ALL | be.INF | free | and | equal | about/concerning | dignity | and | right.PL || they.PL.ABS | give.3P.PRES | reason | and | conscience | and | should | act.3P.PRES.PL | they.PL.DEF.ABS | with | spirit | GEN.brotherhood |

I'm in favor of adelgado's gloss system, but it would really help to divide the actual Omni words with periods to help readers understand which grammar suffixes go where.
Kietl wrote:
Kloiten, could you post your poem translation again? I have a lot of the vocabulary from it written down, but not the whole thing.


Sure. Just let me eat breakfast first, and I'll do it. :lol:
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kietl » Fri 14 Aug 2009 6:39 pm

Okay, here's how it looks with morpheme boundaries indicated:

| ewel.a.y.m | eda.m | du.os | heyra | ga | unwa | for | serta | ga | holo.p || la.p.ka | ossem.a.y | ommes.ka | ga | omwa.ka | ga | yarne | elson.a.y.p | la.p.os.ka | dos | atal | l.foru |
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kloiten » Sun 16 Aug 2009 6:10 am

That was quite a long breakfast. :lol: Actually, to be honest, I just forgot about this... I had it finished though.

Elfivilu
Elfenlied (Elven Song)

Jena, la'.ri dos desun.os.ak soso.n.a.l, “Elf!”
At night in the village the watchman cried "Elf (Eleven)!
night gen.village loc/ade see.def.abs call.-n-.3p.past "Elf"

Zuk so.ki elf.ak suyem.a.l.la la'.kupu dos-
A very small elf was asleep in the wood –
very small.link elf.abs sleep.3p.past.imperfect gen.wood loc/ade

For kidu-ga-huki ru.p!

just around the elf (eleven)! –
about eleven(ten-and-one) hour.plur

Ga kon.a.l os satakili.ke
And he thinks that the nightingale
and decide.3p.past def nightingale.erg

Soso.n.a.l l'.Elf nak.ak la.ku ik

must have called him by name from the valley,
call.-n-.3p.past gen.elf name.abs gen.valley loc/elative

Ehe Silpelit.ek a.las-ok.a.l |

or Silpelit might have sent for him.
or Silpelit.erg 3p.send-for.3p.past

Di os Elf.ek tusi.n.a.l la'.miki.p.ak l'.a,
So the elf rubs his eyes,
first def elf.erg clean.-n-.3p.past gen.eye.plur.abs gen.he

Ha suzi.n.a.l eta-mamu.ki talo.ka l'.a;
comes out of his snail-shell house,
then leave.-n-.3p.past snail-shell.link house.abs gen.he

Ga la.ka du.n.a.l l’okis.l.os ki.ma,
and is like a drunken man,
and he.abs be.-n-.3p.past gen.alcohol.past.def link.like

La.suyem.ak l'.a si’ lopun.a.l.la;

his nap was not finished;
gen.sleep.abs his neg.finish.3p.past.imperfect

Ga la.ka kulim.a.l, tis tas,
and he hobbles down, tip tap,
and he.abs hobble.3p.past [on-ia] [on-ia]

La.pakniku-pu der la.ku na,
through the hazel wood into the valley,
gen.hazel(tree)-wood mov/per gen.valley dir/down

Kitti.n.a.l la.mayan.os i ste;
slips right up to the wall;
walk.-n-.3p.present gen.wall.-n-.def loc/all loc/right-next-to

Os yes-mato.ka ist.a.l l’.ama dos, yes l’.yes dos |

there sits the glow-worm, light on light.
def light-worm.abs sit.3p.present gen.there loc/ade light gen.light loc/ade

“Mella.p.ak ki.kusap du.n.ap.yo tavo?

"What are those bright windows?
window.plur.abs link.bright be.-n-.3p.present what

Yaren du.n.a.y hat;
There must be a wedding inside;
must be.-n-.3p.present wedding

So.ki eda.p.ak.os ist.ap.yo.la la.sot.os dos

the little people are sitting at the feast,
small.link person.plur.abs.def sit.3pp.present.imperfect gen.eat.def loc/ade

Ga nan.a.y.la la.tant-ila dos |
and fooling around in the ballroom.
and have-fun.3p.present.imperfect gen.dance-room loc/ade

Het desun.o.ye l’.ama danan!”

So I'll just take a peep in!"
only(just) see.1p.future gen.there loc/ill

A! Tam.a.l l’.ime.ka l'a la.gest ik.os dor.
Shame! he hits his head on hard stone!
oh(shame) hit.3p.present gen.head.abs gen.he gen.stone link.hard marg/instr

Seya, Elf.e, enja?
Well, elf, had enough, have you?
therefore elf.diminutive enough

Kuku! Kuku!
Cuckoo! Cuckoo!
[on-ia] [on-ia]

My gloss system is different from adelgado's (I didn't bother to change it, hope that won't be too much trouble), so here is a list of grammatical gloss terms for your reference.

gen - genitive case
def - definite article
abs - absolute case
erg - ergative case
link - linking adjective suffix or prefix. If you go to the first posts of this thread, Mayatec's grammar was reposted somewhere around there. In that, you can find an explanation of this grammar.
-n- - the epenthetical n.
1p, 1pp - first person singular, plural
2p, 2pp - second person singular, plural
3p, 3pp - third person singular, plural
present - present tense
past - past tense
future - future tense
imperfect - imperfect mood, indicates that action isn't finished and is still in progress.
loc/ade - locative (adessive) case
loc/ela - locative (elative) case
loc/ill - locative (illative) case
mov/per - movement (pertative) case
marg/instr - instrumental case
[on-ia] - onomatopeoia

That's a lot of cases. I found it easier to express the prepositions in cases... I promise I won't do that again ;)
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby adelgado » Fri 21 Aug 2009 5:03 am

Hey, I'm back.

As Kloiten suggested earlier, I think we should settle on a standard system of gloss. Seeing that my system made an overall good impression but his system is more comprehensive, I suppose we could use parts of both systems to get to a default.

I'm not going to think about this now, but the Wiki might be a good place to decide this. Has anyone tried to sign up yet?

Also, I'll update the word list with the vocabulary from Kloiten's poem.

And Kloiten, I'm not sure I understand your use of the Genitive case. I have the impression you are using the genitive whenever the word in this case is followed by a locative postoposition.

Ga nan.a.y.la la.tant-ila dos |
and fooling around in the ballroom.
and have-fun.3p.present.imperfect gen.dance-room loc/ade

Het desun.o.ye l’.ama danan!”
So I'll just take a peep in!"
only(just) see.1p.future gen.there loc/ill


Am I missing something?

TTY later!
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kloiten » Fri 21 Aug 2009 6:42 am

adelgado wrote:Hey, I'm back.

Welcome back.
adelgado wrote:I'm not going to think about this now, but the Wiki might be a good place to decide this. Has anyone tried to sign up yet?

I haven't tried, partly because I was too busy in the last week and partly because I was lazy. I'll do it sometime soon... I promise.
adelgado wrote:And Kloiten, I'm not sure I understand your use of the Genitive case. I have the impression you are using the genitive whenever the word in this case is followed by a locative postposition.

The genitive case is used whenever there is a preposition. It's slightly reminiscent of the Arabic system. That's how it was decided way back in the old forum.
adelgado wrote:
Kloiten wrote:Ga nan.a.y.la la.tant-ila dos |
and fooling around in the ballroom.
and have-fun.3p.present.imperfect gen.dance-room loc/ade

Het desun.o.ye l’.ama danan!”
So I'll just take a peep in!"
only(just) see.1p.future gen.there loc/ill

Am I missing something?

Not sure what you mean by this... please specify.
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby adelgado » Thu 27 Aug 2009 1:57 am

Kloiten wrote:
adelgado wrote:And Kloiten, I'm not sure I understand your use of the Genitive case. I have the impression you are using the genitive whenever the word in this case is followed by a locative postposition.

The genitive case is used whenever there is a preposition. It's slightly reminiscent of the Arabic system. That's how it was decided way back in the old forum.


Hmm... I did not remembered that. Let me see if I get it:

If we have "The man is heading towards the house", "house" would be in the genitive case and "towards" would be consedered a illative preposition?

adelgado wrote:
Kloiten wrote:Ga nan.a.y.la la.tant-ila dos |
and fooling around in the ballroom.
and have-fun.3p.present.imperfect gen.dance-room loc/ade

Het desun.o.ye l’.ama danan!”
So I'll just take a peep in!"
only(just) see.1p.future gen.there loc/ill

Am I missing something?

Not sure what you mean by this... please specify.


I was just pasting examples of the use I didn't understand.


There's not much on the Arabic case system at the Wikipedia article. What are its distinguishing features?
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Kloiten » Thu 27 Aug 2009 6:53 am

adelgado wrote:
Kloiten wrote:
adelgado wrote:And Kloiten, I'm not sure I understand your use of the Genitive case. I have the impression you are using the genitive whenever the word in this case is followed by a locative postposition.

The genitive case is used whenever there is a preposition. It's slightly reminiscent of the Arabic system. That's how it was decided way back in the old forum.


Hmm... I do not remember that. Let me see if I get it:

If we have "The man is heading towards the house", "house" would be in the genitive case and "towards" would be considered a illative preposition?

That's right.

adelgado wrote: There's not much on the Arabic case system at the Wikipedia article. What are its distinguishing features?

I don't know... All I remember is that when I suggested genitive to double as the "prepositional" case, Mayatec said something like "As in Arabic" or something like that. Or maybe that was somebody else. Or maybe I wasn't the person who suggested it.
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Re: Reviving or Restarting Omni

Postby Talib » Thu 27 Aug 2009 7:55 am

I don't really know what feature of Arabic that could be. I think Mayatec was referring to how genitives can be formed in Arabic and other Semitic languages by juxtaposition, eg. bayt aṭ̣-ṭālib or house DEF.student means "the student's house." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idafa#Geni ... C4.81fa.29
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