As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Heard any good language-related jokes, stories or puns lately?

Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby imbecilica » Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:17 pm

kaenif wrote:In the case of Chinese, the grass script is illegible to people who haven't learnt it. But as most Vietnamese don't know Chu Nom, I think it is okay to learn only cursive?
However, I find normal script and grass script combining into a character weird o_O


I've never personally seen any Chu Nom passages written in cursive style but as it had been used for about 1000 years, compounded by the importance of calligraphy, I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.

I just realised that if Vietnamese were to revert back to writing in Han-Nom, it'd probably be one of the hardest languages to learn overall (reading, writing, speaking etc.)
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby kaenif » Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:19 pm

imbecilica wrote:Chúng mình hãy chơi một trò chơi nhé!
chu_nom_1.jpg


*I'm bored, so let's play a game. Simply match the following Chu Nom characters to their modern alphabetic equivalents and meaning! Ready? Chuẩn bị!...

chu_nom_2.jpg


đêm, máu, nước, năm, mê, nhả, ngày, gió, ẵm, nỉa, ngủ, chó, đi, muỗng, tỏi, sắt, tháng, tim, mía, đời, mưa, mẹ, em, yêu, nấm, gà, ghét, no, ớt, lửa

fire, water, drowsy, to go, to hate, to be full, to spit out, metal, life, sugar cane, little sister, mother, garlic, month, day, fork, chicken, chilli, rain, mushroom, wind, to sleep, to carry a child, dog, to sleep, chicken, spoon, blood, night, heart

I can see everything from the radical and phonetic :lol:
(In fact not :? )
Can you recognise this character?
Nope, it's not shāng. It is a 囧 with a hat which 囧ed its chin off!
囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧!
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby imbecilica » Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:21 pm

kaenif wrote:I can see everything from the radical and phonetic :lol:
(In fact not :? )


So you've got it all? :mrgreen: Also, I purposefully selected characters with semantic and phonetic. However, not all Chu Nom characters were formed that way. There were also modified characters and original Chinese characters used phonetically.
Last edited by imbecilica on Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby kaenif » Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:24 pm

imbecilica wrote:
kaenif wrote:I can see everything from the radical and phonetic :lol:
(In fact not :? )


So you've got it all? :mrgreen:

Nope. :roll:
Can you recognise this character?
Nope, it's not shāng. It is a 囧 with a hat which 囧ed its chin off!
囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧!
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby imbecilica » Mon 03 Aug 2009 4:36 pm

:P. It's fun when I learn "new" Chinese characters that turn out to be words that were borrowed into Vietnamese. These Sino-Vietnamese borrowings really help with like 1/3 of all the words I've learnt. For example, today I learnt 過去 ̣̣which in Vietnamese is quá khứ (the past) or 看著 and 聼著which are khán giả and thính giả. Whenever I learn new Chinese characters I automatically translate it into Vietnamese to see if there's a borrowing. This helps because if I recognise a character, I can guess it. :ugeek:
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby sokuban » Wed 05 Aug 2009 2:51 pm

Kay so, I don't even know Vietnamese.

But I'm bored so I'm going to guess the meanings at least. If one day I decide to learn a little Vietnamese I'll guess the pronunciation too. I'm actually good at this cross language reading of Chinese Characters and guessing at {readings/what character certain sounds are} through pronunciation patterns.

11 fire, 22 water, 18 drowsy, to go, 30 to hate, to be full, to spit out, metal, life, sugar cane, little sister, mother, garlic, month, day, fork, chicken, chilli, rain, mushroom, wind, to sleep, to carry a child, dog, to sleep, chicken, spoon, blood, night, heart

Kay, so I did fire and water, then I realized I'd need to learn Vietnamese to do the rest.

Sounds like a really fun game but umm, give me a couple months for this.

EDIT: Oh, and I may be mistaken, but I got the impression that Vietnamese cannot be written with han nom alone? Before chu nom, Vietnamese [people] essentially translated everything they wrote into Chinese. (Or so I thought.)

Imagine that. Speaking and writing in a different language. Chinese and Vietnamese are kinda similar, but it would be cool if you spoke and wrote in a completely different language. (Of course for it to really be fun, the written language would have to be semanto-phonetic, and unintelligible when read aloud without a reading aid.)

EDIT2: Curly brackets added to aid reading.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Sobekhotep » Fri 07 Aug 2009 12:12 am

sokuban wrote:Imagine that. Speaking and writing in a different language.

Diglossia. This is the reality for virtually the entire Arab world.
ለሐዘበ ፡ ዘየደአ
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Talib » Fri 07 Aug 2009 12:19 am

It's not generally considered a different language. It is for speakers of Chinese varieties sometimes.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby imbecilica » Fri 07 Aug 2009 10:11 am

imbecilica wrote:
The attachment chu_nom_2.jpg is no longer available


Answers:

1. gà - chicken
2. chó - dog
3. tỏi - garlic
4. ớt - chilli
5. nỉa - fork
6. muỗng - spoon
7. tháng - month
8. ngày - day
9. năm - year
10. tim - heart
11. lửa - fire
12. nấm - mushroom
13. mê - drowsy
14. gió - wind
15. đi - to go
16. máu - blood
17. đời - life
18. ngủ - to sleep
19. mẹ - mother
20. no - to be full <food>
21. đêm - night
22. nước - water
23. nhả - to spit out
24. ẵm - to carry <a child>
25. mưa - rain
26. sắt - metal
27. mía - sugar cane
28. yêu - to love
29. ghét - to hate
30. em - younger sister

Reading Han-Nom together can be confusing sometimes as there are lots of characters with more than one reading. However, given the context, it isn't that hard especially if you know Vietnamese quite well. Nearly every modern Chinese character has a Vietnamese reading - my mum thought I wrote gibberish when she went through my texts recently. :P

eg. 我的生日是九月十二號 ... Ngã đích sinh nhật thị cửu nguyệt thập nhị hiệu! [instead of the normal] Ngày sinh nhật tôi là ngày mười hai tháng chín!
12345.jpg
12345.jpg (3.58 KiB) Viewed 5325 times
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby kaenif » Fri 07 Aug 2009 2:38 pm

imbecilica wrote:
imbecilica wrote:
chu_nom_2.jpg


Answers:

1. gà - chicken
2. chó - dog
3. tỏi - garlic
4. ớt - chilli
5. nỉa - fork
6. muỗng - spoon
7. tháng - month
8. ngày - day
9. năm - year
10. tim - heart
11. lửa - fire
12. nấm - mushroom
13. mê - drowsy
14. gió - wind
15. đi - to go
16. máu - blood
17. đời - life
18. ngủ - to sleep
19. mẹ - mother
20. no - to be full <food>
21. đêm - night
22. nước - water
23. nhả - to spit out
24. ẵm - to carry <a child>
25. mưa - rain
26. sắt - metal
27. mía - sugar cane
28. yêu - to love
29. ghét - to hate
30. em - younger sister

Reading Han-Nom together can be confusing sometimes as there are lots of characters with more than one reading. However, given the context, it isn't that hard especially if you know Vietnamese quite well. Nearly every modern Chinese character has a Vietnamese reading - my mum thought I wrote gibberish when she went through my texts recently. :P

eg. 我的生日是九月十二號 ... Ngã đích sinh nhật thị cửu nguyệt thập nhị hiệu! [instead of the normal] Ngày sinh nhật tôi là ngày mười hai tháng chín!
12345.jpg

The other way round, my mum would think that the Chu Nom is gibberish too :lol:
Can you recognise this character?
Nope, it's not shāng. It is a 囧 with a hat which 囧ed its chin off!
囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧囧!
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