Teaching yourself Russian

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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Aeetlrcreejl » Sat 04 Jul 2009 3:39 am

In the 40 or so kids in my Latin class, there seem to be on'y three that are any good at it. Two of us are moving onto Latin V, while the other is going to Latin IV. Last year, when we were in Latin III, people still had to look at the declension charts for 1st and 2nd declension nouns!
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby scottrupe_1 » Sat 04 Jul 2009 4:28 pm

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:In the 40 or so kids in my Latin class, there seem to be on'y three that are any good at it. Two of us are moving onto Latin V, while the other is going to Latin IV. Last year, when we were in Latin III, people still had to look at the declension charts for 1st and 2nd declension nouns!


Yeah! In my third year Spanish class people have to check conjugation charts for verbs we learned two years ago, and don't know the difference between feminine and masculine nouns! :x
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Neqitan » Sat 04 Jul 2009 10:04 pm

dtp883 wrote:
Neqitan wrote:
Sobekhotep wrote:Yeah, I had the same problem during high school language classes.

Urghh... I sometimes really would want to join a course, because I'm that kind of people that don't have the dedication to keep studying, even if it's of course more productive.

But the memories of my classmates with which I learned English still haunt me!


Haha, this happens to me (I'm sure to everyone who wants to learn something at one point or another). Imagine a Spanish class; you're trying to memorise the order of direct and indirect object pronouns and the conjugations of haber, while everyone around you is saying Me llamo Kevin. Tengo un gato pero yo gusta perros. /mi 'lamo 'kɛvɪn 'tɛŋgo un 'gɑto 'peɹo jo 'gustəɹos/.

*This is 7 months in.
**Bold=pronunciation
***Underline=grammar


It's hard to get rid of one's accent as for using [ɛ], and yeah, they shouldn't be pronouncing <ll> as /l/ and <e> as /i/. But if they are using [e] and [o] here and not [eɪ] or [oʊ], I must say it's not so bad. :P

I still struggle a lot with English vowels for that matter, mainly because I never was taught a proper approach to them.
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby dtp883 » Sun 05 Jul 2009 1:51 am

It's hard to get rid of one's accent as for using [ɛ], and yeah, they shouldn't be pronouncing <ll> as /l/ and <e> as /i/. But if they are using [e] and [o] here and not [eɪ] or [oʊ], I must say it's not so bad.


I'm pretty sure I use /ɛ/ for <e> when it is syllable initial; es = /ɛs/ está = /ɛs'ta/, but /e/ when it is final hablaré = /abla'ɾe/ etc.

I lied they use [oʊ] i.e. tengo = /tɛŋgoʊ/.

<ll> as /l/ is funny to hear especially because me llamo turns from an introduction into a questionable statement. :lol:

You didn't mention it but /ɹ/ for /ɾ/ and /r/ really bothers me, even though my teacher said that many Spanish speakers can't trill their /r/'s. I'm pretty sure they don't use /ɹ/ as a substitute.
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Neqitan » Sun 05 Jul 2009 4:35 am

dtp883 wrote:You didn't mention it but /ɹ/ for /ɾ/ and /r/ really bothers me, even though my teacher said that many Spanish speakers can't trill their /r/'s. I'm pretty sure they don't use /ɹ/ as a substitute.

They do use [ɹ]. My brother is one of them. Apparently, he has a particular ligament length under his tongue that doesn't allow him to trill his /r/, but he refuses to undergo the small operation. :roll: I've always mocked him for being a native Spanish speaker and yet he doesn't pronounce /r/ as he should. :D
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby dtp883 » Sun 05 Jul 2009 8:03 am

Neqitan wrote:
dtp883 wrote:You didn't mention it but /ɹ/ for /ɾ/ and /r/ really bothers me, even though my teacher said that many Spanish speakers can't trill their /r/'s. I'm pretty sure they don't use /ɹ/ as a substitute.

They do use [ɹ]. My brother is one of them. Apparently, he has a particular ligament length under his tongue that doesn't allow him to trill his /r/, but he refuses to undergo the small operation. :roll: I've always mocked him for being a native Spanish speaker and yet he doesn't pronounce /r/ as he should. :D


Oh, oops. Quick question can he pronounce /ɾ/? If he can't how does he make distinctions between pero, perro, caro, and carro? I mean if he can't make it, I doubt it would cause much confusion, especially by context, but I'm just wondering.

One more question does he mutate <tr> /tɾ/ and <dɾ> /dr/ to [tʃɹ] and [dʒɹ?]
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Neqitan » Sun 05 Jul 2009 6:30 pm

dtp883 wrote:Oh, oops. Quick question can he pronounce /ɾ/?

Yes, he can. So it's [peɾo] vs [peɹo].
One more question does he mutate <tr> /tɾ/ and <dɾ> /dr/ to [tʃɹ] and [dʒɹ?]

No! That would be too English-like! :lol:

To be more accurate, his ɹ is slightly fricative, somewhere between [ʐ] and [ɹ]. I'd like to record him but he won't let me. :P
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Sobekhotep » Mon 06 Jul 2009 5:39 am

dtp883 wrote:/mi 'lamo 'kɛvɪn 'tɛŋgo un 'gɑto 'peɹo jo 'gustəɹos/.

You forgot to add the aspirations to the voiceless plosives! I.E. [kʰɛvɪn], [tʰɛŋgo], [gɑtʰo], [pʰeɹo]

Neqitan wrote:It's hard to get rid of one's accent as for using [ɛ]

In Portuguese, there is both [ɛ] & [e] with minimal pairs, like sede vs. sede. If you say [sɛ.ʤɪ] you are saying "headquarters". If you say [se.ʤɪ] you're saying "thirst".
When I speak Spanish I tend to use [ɛ]. :oops:

dtp883 wrote:my teacher said that many Spanish speakers can't trill their /r/'s.

That makes me feel better because I absolutely suck at [r]! :(
Although I've never heard any Spanish speakers on TV that couldn't pronounce it.
I read that a lot of Boricuas pronounce /r/ as [x] but I've never heard anyone pronounce it like that; it's always [r]. :|
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby Neqitan » Mon 06 Jul 2009 5:52 am

Sobekhotep wrote:
dtp883 wrote:my teacher said that many Spanish speakers can't trill their /r/'s.

That makes me feel better because I absolutely suck at [r]! :(
Although I've never heard any Spanish speakers on TV that couldn't pronounce it.
I read that a lot of Boricuas pronounce /r/ as [x] but I've never heard anyone pronounce it like that; it's always [r]. :|

[x]? That's crazy! :lol:

So my name would be /xe.'na.to/! OMG

And I think there aren't "many" Spanish speakers that can't trill their [r] correctly, actually, I only know three of them: my brother, a Socials teacher I had (who either used [ɹ] or exaggerated it, like [r:]), and a friend of mine (and she also had a lisp). I've never heard someone who couldn't pronounce it in TV, too... Hmmm...
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Re: Teaching yourself Russian

Postby dtp883 » Mon 06 Jul 2009 8:33 am

"Another significant variant for 'rr' is that found with many Puerto Rican speakers and to a lesser extent in some Dominican and Cuban regions. For these Caribbean speakers the alveolar trill becomes totally or partially back or velar; this means 'rr' can be either glottalized becoming [hrr] (a soft [h] followed by a voiceless trill) or, in advanced speakers, especially Puerto Ricans, the alveolar trill becomes a voiceless uvular trill [χ] or velar [x]. This [χ] realization for rr may give the wrong impression that Puerto Ricans pronounce 'rr' like 'j', something that never happens since Puerto Rican 'j' is a soft glottal [h] whereas 'rr' is always a strong uvular or velar sound."

-Wikipedia Link

I think the reason you've never heard someone pronounce /r/ as /x/ is probably the same reason American English speaking actors will never* lisp /s/ > /θ/ nor talk with a non-GA accent unless they are in a role that requires it. They want the actors to seem universal and adhere to the official language.

*Of course, there are probably some actors with non-GA accents naturally but they're in the minority.
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