As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Heard any good language-related jokes, stories or puns lately?

Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby formiko » Thu 21 May 2009 8:58 am

ILuvEire wrote:
Neqitan wrote:A Vietnamese guy from Unilang said that Viets usually write SMS without any accents (just like Spanish speakers!), even though they make huge differences in the language.

Yeah, they do. And they are very confusing to learners...Usually natives can tell words apart from context, but I can't. :P


Just like learners of English couldn't understand
c u l8r
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Neqitan » Thu 21 May 2009 3:34 pm

Actually, English text talk is extremely well known thanks to the Internet. Now try to learn another language's... c u l8r!

The only way I can think you can learn it is if you ask a native speaker yourself, because no book teaches it for some reason.

For instance in Spanish in Latin America:
que = q
porque, porqué, por qué = xq

de = d
de que = d q / dq
donde, dónde = dond (sometimes)

te = t

se = c (sometimes)

me = m (sometimes)

ve = b (sometimes)

bien = bn
también = tambn

concha de tu madre = ctm (common insult among South Americans)

puta tu madre = ptm (sometimes)

te lo juro = tlj

all final /ka/ sounds are written <k>:
nunca = nunk
acá = ak
loca = lok

sí = see (sometimes, using English mechanics)

más = + (sometimes)
demás = d+ (sometimes)

Overall, intentional misspellings of c-z-s, y-ll-i, b-v; omition of h, repeating the letter zzzz unnecesarily, are very common.

More or less, everyone has their own style to text, and you get used to it over time. For instance, some friends and I always write <y>, <yo>, <ya>, <llamar>, <llorar> as *i, *io, *ia, *iamar and *iorar just to be playful with the orthography. A friend of mine wrote all unstressed final /o/ and every /o/ in one syllable words as <u> and the same from /e/ to <i>, so <yo te amo> would be *yu ti amu! Another guy wrote imitating an stereotypical Caribbean way to speak, so <te voy a decir> would be *t vua desir...

And there's more from where that came from, but that's all on the top of my head. :P
i hay + d dond eso vino, pero eso es todo lo q c m vino a la cabeza
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby imbecilica » Fri 22 May 2009 1:25 pm

"Gzoi oi, LAU WA...u toi dau rui ma 0 goi me vay? Chung nao toi nho nhan me nhe! bye"

Well since the single syllable in Vietnamese does not exceed 7 letters (most syllable is usually 3-4 letters long), there's no need to shorten many words. As you can see ^ not much needs to be shortened. The proper form and translation are:

"Giời ơi, LÂU QUÁ́...bạn ở đâu rồi mà không gọi tui vậy? Chừng nào tới nhớ nhấn tui nhé! bye"
[Omg, SO SLOW where are you already and why haven't you called me? When you arrive remember to message me okay! bye]

Of course it's mostly overseas Vietnamese who typically use the English u (you) and me informally maybe because of the out of date system Vietnamese uses lol. I mean, we don't even have a truly neutral word for neither I nor you.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Sobekhotep » Fri 22 May 2009 8:38 pm

Neqitan wrote:A Vietnamese guy from Unilang said that Viets usually write SMS without any accents.

If he was talking about the Vietnamese diaspora (Vietnamese Americans, Australians, etc) it's probably because the phones simply don't have all of the proper diacritics.
But, if he meant Viets in Vietnam, maybe because it would take forever to type all those diacritics?
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Neqitan » Fri 22 May 2009 11:55 pm

Sobekhotep wrote:
Neqitan wrote:A Vietnamese guy from Unilang said that Viets usually write SMS without any accents.

If he was talking about the Vietnamese diaspora (Vietnamese Americans, Australians, etc) it's probably because the phones simply don't have all of the proper diacritics.
But, if he meant Viets in Vietnam, maybe because it would take forever to type all those diacritics?

He was talking about the Vietnamese in Vietnam. :P

Here you have the posts:
Draven wrote:
A Latvian girl wrote:
Draven wrote:I own a Nokia too so my 1, 0, * and # are exactly like in Psi-Lord's list.

2 - A, Ă, Â, B, C, 2, acute accent
3 - D, Đ, E, Ê, F, 3, grave accent
4 - G, H, I, 4, hook accent
5 - J, K, L, 5, tilde
6 - M, N, O, Ô, Ơ, 6, underdot
7 - P, Q, R, S, 7
8 - T, U, Ư, V, 8
9 – W, X, Y, Z, 9

Those who love challenging themselves can try to describe how one would make ẵ, ầ, ề and ợ. After you're done you'll realize that small exercise is useless since no one bothers with diacritics when they're messaging in Vietnamese.

Translations are vehemently confusing so I have my phone in English.


Really ? I thought only Latvians are bad at translating new technical terms, but in phone it is quite bearable

For us diactrics make large difference, so people occaisonaly use double letters to indicate them, however nnewest phones have Latvian letters

For us diacritics make huge differences too, but still... XD

So yeah, it's pretty much because no one feels like taking their time to add all the tones. :D
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby sokuban » Sat 23 May 2009 3:16 pm

ILuvEire wrote:
sokuban wrote:This is why I think Vietnamese should be written with at least some sort of Chinese-derived writing system. (Okay, maybe not Chu Nom because it's crazy.)

I always wondered what handwritten Vietnamese looked like. There are tons of tiny words and a diarrhoea of accents. Looks hard to write. Do people just ignore the accents in everyday life?

It really doesn't look bad handwritten. Most (okay, actually all) Vietnamese I know write it really neatly, although my friends mom writes it in cursive, and that's when things start getting confusing.


Sorry, when I said "handwritten" I meant cursive. (Here most handwritten material is done in some sort of cursive.) With so many accents it would be difficult to write cursively, unless there was a system to write the accents with cursive too. (Now that would be cool.) Can you get me a scan of your friends mom's writing or some other person who writes cursive Vietnamese?

Sobekhotep wrote:
sokuban wrote:This is why I think Vietnamese should be written with at least some sort of Chinese-derived writing system. (Okay, maybe not Chu Nom because it's crazy.)

I think a Chu Nom revival would be awesome!


As awesome as it would be, I don't think it is a good idea.

The problem with Chu Nom is that it isn't meant for Vietnamese. It is more like bending the Chinese writing system to write Vietnamese. I'm not even sure if it is possible to learn Chu Nom without knowing Classical Chinese itself. Realistically you can't get the whole country to be bilingual, so if you try to revive Chu Nom you'll end up with only a small minority of the population being literate. Chu nom has lots of strokes so it isn't very practical. It is also very unorganized, with native words being written in a variety of creative ways.

Simplification (and maybe standardization) of Chu Nom could help the situation, but it would be very difficult to pull off right.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Dennis » Thu 09 Jul 2009 9:04 pm

formiko wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:
Neqitan wrote:A Vietnamese guy from Unilang said that Viets usually write SMS without any accents (just like Spanish speakers!), even though they make huge differences in the language.

Yeah, they do. And they are very confusing to learners...Usually natives can tell words apart from context, but I can't. :P


Just like learners of English couldn't understand
c u l8r

Learners of English usually don't understand English even when it's normally written. You tend to pronounce numbers like in your own native tongue, so things like c u l8r is exceptionally difficult. But even if you would write 8 as eight (and not acht, like in my native language), English stays random.

c could be sea or see
u is you
l8r -> leighter -> laughter?

That's the worst thing of English: your random pronounciation.

though=dough
(th)ough=/=(t)ough
etc...
Speak: Dutch, English
Something between reading and speaking: French, German
Read: Latin, Ancient Greek

Japanese: somewhere around JLPT 4 level (out of 5), I guess. Also, I (should) know around 250-300 kanji.
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Neqitan » Fri 10 Jul 2009 3:01 am

Dennis wrote:c could be sea or see
u is you
l8r -> leighter -> laughter?

That's the worst thing of English: your random pronounciation.

though=dough
(th)ough=/=(t)ough
etc...

I find the words starting with consonant + e even worse: "is that /ɹi/, or /ɹɪ/, or /ɹɛ/?" You can't never tell! (Well, at least it can only be /ɹɛ/ if the stress is in that syllable, but there's nothing that stops me from pronouncing "research" with /ɹɪ/...) And that goes with where do you intervocalic voice <s> and where you don't—completely random too. I totally hate this...
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby dtp883 » Fri 10 Jul 2009 3:10 am

I'm sorry Neqitan and Dennis. Thanks for having completely/almost completely orthographic languages.
Native: English (NW American)
Advanced: Spanish
Intermediate: French
Beginning: Arabic (MSA/Egyptian)
Some day: German
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Re: As if Vietnamese orthography isn't bad enough!

Postby Dennis » Fri 10 Jul 2009 8:21 am

dtp883 wrote:I'm sorry Neqitan and Dennis. Thanks for having completely/almost completely orthographic languages.

My language is not orthographic, but English takes the cake.
Speak: Dutch, English
Something between reading and speaking: French, German
Read: Latin, Ancient Greek

Japanese: somewhere around JLPT 4 level (out of 5), I guess. Also, I (should) know around 250-300 kanji.
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