21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

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21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby penkyamp » Sat 06 Feb 2010 7:56 am

21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

21世纪改良满达琳语拼音方案第二式(大中华华语人名英化拼音)

庞贯哲

凡画等于号的,都是可以互换的形式

辅音, 声母

b p m f (pie 撇 mie 灭 muo 莫)


d t n l (nie 捏 die 叠 lie 烈 nuo 诺)


nyu lyu (nyu 女 lyue 略)

g k h (guan 惯 huang 荒 kuo 阔 gong 工)


z c s ( si 思 ser=sir=sier=丝儿 zuan 钻 suo 索 zong 宗)


zy cy sy (代替 j q x 如 "cyi" 代替 [qi] "其" cye=cyie=切 zyiu=zyou=zyiu 揪 syen=syien=先 zyong=zyiong=炯 syau=syiau=笑)

zyu cyu syu (代替 ju- qu- xu- 如 "zyue" 代替 [jue] "绝" syuen 选 cyu 区)

j ch sh r ( ri=zhi=日 ran=zhan=然 juan=转 shi 是 jer=jir=jier 汁儿)



y w
yu ("yuen" 代替 [yuan] "圆" "cyu" 代替 [qu] "去" yong 勇 wo 卧 you 忧)


元音, 韵母

a
ai au (代替 ai ao )
an ang

e
ei (代替 ei 如"zey" 代替 [zei] "贼")
en eng (jeng 正 weng 翁)
er

i
in ing (ling 灵 sying 星 ying 英)

o
ou ong (cyiu=cyou=cyiou=求)

u


y
ya yau yan yang
ye yen

yong (syong=syiong 雄)
yu yun yue yuen (代替 v vn ve van 如 "nyu" 代替 [nv]"女", "cyun" 代替 [qvn]"群", "lyue" 代替 [lve]"略", "syuen" 代替 [xvan]"宣")


w
ua uai uan uang (huai 坏)
uei uen ueng (guei 贵 huen 混 kuei 奎 weng 瓮)




四声调

mä má mâ mà





再别康桥
Zàibié Kängcyáu

作者:徐志摩
Zuòjê: Syú Jì-Muó

轻轻地我走了,正如我轻轻地来,
Cyïngcyïngde wô zôule, jèngrú wô cyïngcyïngde lái
轻轻挥手,作别西天的云彩。
Cyïngcyïng huëishôu, zuòbié syïtiën de yúncâi

那河畔的金柳,是夕阳中的新娘,
Na hepan de zyinlyou, shi syiyangjong de syinniang
波光里的滟影,在我心头荡漾。
Boguangli de yenying, zai wo syintou dangyang

软泥上的青荇,油油地在水底招摇,
Ruannishang de cyingsying, youyoude zai shueidi jauyau
在康河的柔波里,我甘心做一条水草。
Zai Kanghe de roubuoli, wo gansyin zuo yitiau shueicau

那榆荫下的一潭,不是清泉是天上的虹,
Na yuyinsya de yi tan, bushi cyingcyuen shi tienshang de hong
揉碎在浮藻间,沉淀彩虹似的梦。
Rousuei zai fuzau zyen, chendien caihongsi de meng


寻梦,撑一支长篙,向青草更青处漫溯,
Syunmeng, cheng yiji changhau, syang cyingcau gengcying chu mansu
满载一船星辉,在星辉斑斓里放歌。
Manzai yichuan syinghuei, zai syinghuei-banlanli fangge

但我不能放歌,悄悄是离别的笙箫,
Dan wo buneng fangge, cyaucyau shi libie de shengsyau
夏虫也为我沉默,沉默是今晚的康桥。
Syachong ye wei wo chenmuo, chenmuo shi zyinwan de Kangcyau

悄悄地我走了,正如我悄悄地来,
Cyaucyaude wo zoule, jengru wo cyaucyaude lai
挥挥衣袖,不带走一片云彩。
Hueihuei yisyou, bu daizou yipien yuncai
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Talib » Sat 06 Feb 2010 6:51 pm

I say if it ain't broke don't fix it, although I never understood why o was used for [ʊ] when u would do fine. When I see the sequences -ong and -ao, I want to pronounce them [ɔŋ]* and [ao]*.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Neqitan » Sat 06 Feb 2010 7:32 pm

The main flaw: Substituting <j, q, x> for <zy, cy, sy> doesn't make any sense, considering they're actually the allophones of /k, kʰ, χ/ before close front vowels (/i, y/).

The rest of changes are fine I think, or at least they seem clear to me as a student of Mandarin.... Substituting the Pinyin abbreviations <-un, -ui> to <-uen, -uei>, marking the rising of the /a/ before coda /n/ as <-ien>, marking the labialization in <bo> as <buo>, writing the /y/ as <yu> in all positions.

In the end it's not that different from Pinyin anyway, it only has five modifications...
Talib wrote:I say if it ain't broke don't fix it, although I never understood why o was used for [ʊ] when u would do fine. When I see the sequences -ong and -ao, I want to pronounce them [ɔŋ]* and [ao]*.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the latter was done having French and English speakers in mind though, who in some positions would read the <au> as their /o/ and /ɔ:/ respectively.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Talib » Sat 06 Feb 2010 7:52 pm

Neqitan wrote:The main flaw: Substituting <j, q, x> for <zy, cy, sy> doesn't make any sense, considering they're actually the allophones of /k, kʰ, x/ before close front vowels (/i, y/).
I thought they were allophones of the retroflexes actually.
Substituting the Pinyin abbreviations <-un, -ui> to <-uen, -uei>
Can you give me an example of a Chinese word where <un> is short for <uen>?
marking the rising of the /a/ before coda /n/ as <-ien>
The reason for this is because it's considered an allophone of /a/.
marking the labialization in <bo> as <buo>,
I thought this was pronounced [po].
writing the /y/ as <yu> in all positions.
Since any transcription is ideally 1:1, I would prefer <ü>. But there might be problems entering it into computers.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the latter was done having French and English speakers in mind though, who in some positions would read the <au> as their /o/ and /ɔ:/ respectively.
Good point. But they would do the same for <ai>, right?

Nb: French <au> can be /o/ or /ɔ/.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Neqitan » Sat 06 Feb 2010 9:31 pm

Talib wrote:
Neqitan wrote:The main flaw: Substituting <j, q, x> for <zy, cy, sy> doesn't make any sense, considering they're actually the allophones of /k, kʰ, x/ before close front vowels (/i, y/).
I thought they were allophones of the retroflexes actually.
No, they come from the velars. Doesn't it seems curious to you how Canada is pronounced 加拿大 jiānádà?

Another good proof is the surname 金 jīn "Jin", which equivalent in Korean is 김 gim /kim/ "Kim", and in Cantonese, gām /kɐm˥/ "Kam". So /kin˥/->[tɕin˥].
Substituting the Pinyin abbreviations <-un, -ui> to <-uen, -uei>
Can you give me an example of a Chinese word where <un> is short for <uen>?
-un stands for [Cʷən]. So 婚 would be [χʷən˥].
marking the rising of the /a/ before coda /n/ as <-ien>
The reason for this is because it's considered an allophone of /a/.
Yeah, but so <j, q, x> are allophones too...
marking the labialization in <bo> as <buo>,
I thought this was pronounced [po].
Not in Beijing: [pʷɔ].
writing the /y/ as <yu> in all positions.
Since any transcription is ideally 1:1, I would prefer <ü>. But there might be problems entering it into computers.
<ǖ, ǘ, ǚ, ǜ>.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Talib » Sat 06 Feb 2010 10:43 pm

No, they come from the velars. Doesn't it seems curious to you how Canada is pronounced 加拿大 jiānádà?

Another good proof is the surname 金 jīn "Jin", which equivalent in Korean is 김 gim /kim/ "Kim", and in Cantonese, gām /kɐm˥/ "Kam". So /kin˥/->[tɕin˥].
Oh, I know that's where they derive from, but I thought phonologically they were allophones of /tʂ tʂʰ ʂ/.
un stands for [Cʷən]. So 婚 would be [χʷən˥].
Hmm, I thought it would be [xun˥]. In zhuyin, this would be written <ㄏㄨㄣ> so I guess you're correct. I don't deal with pinyin usually so I'm not familiar with finer details like that.
Not in Beijing: [pʷɔ].
Maybe I just don't hear the labialization...
<ǖ, ǘ, ǚ, ǜ>.
I know. I mean that for typing pinyin into an IME (where tones are disregarded) <ü> isn't always available. A workaround is to substitute <v>.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby linguoboy » Sun 07 Feb 2010 7:00 pm

Neqitan wrote:
Talib wrote:
Neqitan wrote:The main flaw: Substituting <j, q, x> for <zy, cy, sy> doesn't make any sense, considering they're actually the allophones of /k, kʰ, x/ before close front vowels (/i, y/).
I thought they were allophones of the retroflexes actually.
No, they come from the velars. Doesn't it seems curious to you how Canada is pronounced 加拿大 jiānádà?

Neqitan, how do you pronounce "Tientsin"?

The palatal series comes from both the velars and the alveolar affricates. That's why their proper phonemicisation is one of the classic dilemmas of Mandarin phonology.

Talib, I don't recall seeing an analysis that analyses them as allophones of the retroflex series. The main reason is that this allows one to phonemicise [tʂʰʐ̩], [tʂʐ̩], [ʂʐ̩], [ʐ̩] as /tʂʰi/, /tʂi/, etc. parallel to /tɕʰi/, /tɕi/, etc. Much easier to treat [ʐ̩] as an allophone of [i][*] then try to explain why some affricates can form syllables of their own but not others (not to mention the fact that this recapitulates the historical development; Beijing opera pronunciation still allows [tʂʰi], etc.).

[*] Pulleyblank actually goes further and demonstrates how [i] itself can be regarded as an allophone of [j], but that's another kettle of congee.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Neqitan » Sun 07 Feb 2010 7:38 pm

linguoboy wrote:Neqitan, how do you pronounce "Tientsin"?

The palatal series comes from both the velars and the alveolar affricates. That's why their proper phonemicisation is one of the classic dilemmas of Mandarin phonology.
:!: Then zy, cy and sy are alright!
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby Talib » Sun 07 Feb 2010 8:51 pm

linguoboy wrote:Talib, I don't recall seeing an analysis that analyses them as allophones of the retroflex series.
Aren't they written the same in Wade-Giles and Yale?
The main reason is that this allows one to phonemicise [tʂʰʐ̩], [tʂʐ̩], [ʂʐ̩], [ʐ̩] as /tʂʰi/, /tʂi/, etc. parallel to /tɕʰi/, /tɕi/, etc. Much easier to treat [ʐ̩] as an allophone of [i][*] then try to explain why some affricates can form syllables of their own but not others (not to mention the fact that this recapitulates the historical development; Beijing opera pronunciation still allows [tʂʰi], etc.).
That and you can merge them with the syllable fricatives of [tsz̩ tsʰz̩ sz̩] as an [ɨ] allophone of /i/.
[*] Pulleyblank actually goes further and demonstrates how [i] itself can be regarded as an allophone of [j], but that's another kettle of congee.
I've seen all the high vowels treated as allophones of the approximants /j ɥ w/ but I thought it was the other way around, ie. non-syllabic /i y u/ form rising diphthongs with other syllable rimes.
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Re: 21 Century Pang Reformed Mandarin Pinyin II

Postby penkyamp » Tue 09 Feb 2010 11:21 am

http://pinyin.info/index.html


I am mainly creating this Mandarin Pinyin II for the Taiwanese and the overseas Mandarin speakers in order that their transliterated Mandarin names would look more presentable in English than the Pinyin I versions.

The Taiwanese have, for all practical purposes, adopted Pinyin I for official transliteration of national place names. But in personal name transliteration, Pinyin I is meeting as much resistance in Taiwan as in Singapore, if not more.

The Chinese Singaporeans, being a people that adopted Mainland Chinese simplified characters and Pinyin I wholesale out of pragmatism and a sense of solidarity with a common "Hua" heritage, to this date largely keep their names transliterated from the Minnan or Cantonese original in English contexts. Of the few Singaporeans who prefer a Mandarin version of transliteration in English, prefer to use Wade-Giles. Papa Lee Kwan Yew seems to keep his quasi Hakka and non-systematic anglicized version name in English contexts. But son Lee Hsien-Loong uses a modified Wade-Giles version of his Mandarin name. It should be Li Hsien-Lung in proper Wade Giles.

The Taiwanese either transliterate their Minnan original or keep the Wade-Giles when transliterating their Mandarin names. This means few Taiwanese gave a sh*t about the Tongyong Pinyin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongyong system that was promoted during the Chen Shui-Bian era (very interestingly, the Minnanist president Chen Shui-Bian uses a systematic Mainland Pinyin transliteration of his MANDARIN name!), nor do they likely care about the newly adopted Mainland Pinyin under President Ma Ying-Jeou (whose anglicized name is neither Wade-Giles or Pinyin, but a self-customized one).

Tongyong Pinyin is cumbersome and unnecessary. What is "Jh" really for, and can it really be used in anglicized names at all?

I don't think the Taiwanese, Singaporeans or overseas Mandarin speakers will be big fans of Zh, X, Q, either.

I don't think they are fans of the rhyme "E" either. But Pinyin II hasn't changed that... yet.

Also, the Taiwanese, Singaporeans and overseas Mandarin speaks will most likely prefer the consonant of "C" (not including C in the consonants Cy and Ch) to be changed into Ts as well. Perhaps they might want to see Cy changed into Tsy as well.

Pinyin II just gives them a SYSTEMATIC idea. They can customize it themselves.
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