Talk in a language you don't know

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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Fri 07 Sep 2012 3:35 am

Tikolm wrote:That makes a little more sense. Is that what you intended? If so, what is it sincerely a hundred percent of? Were you referring to the dog sleeping under the car?

Cywir means not just "sincere" but also "correct".

Remember, adjectives mutate after yn. I know that keeping track of the mutations is baffling at first, but after a while they become second nature. If a term gives you "no matches", almost without thinking you search it again with a different initial consonant.

Tikolm wrote:
Chysgiff y gath ddim ar wely nad mae e ddim yn gynnes!
(I love [sarcastic] how every single word has a red underline except for y and e.)

What do you mean by a "red underline"?

Tikolm wrote:You said this was correct, but elsewhere (I'll reference the post if you like) you said that ydy had to follow nad. I'd like to know which statement was right.

Sorry, don't know how I overlooked that: the verb should've been ydy, not mae. Mae can occasionally be used interrogatively, but it can't ever be a negative form[*].


[*] At least in Standard Welsh. Apparently some dialects allow it, but don't worry about that now.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Fri 07 Sep 2012 12:56 pm

linguoboy wrote:Cywir means not just "sincere" but also "correct".

So said Google as well. I assume that's more what you had in mind.
Remember, adjectives mutate after yn.

So that's what mutates after yn. Thanks for specifying it.
I know that keeping track of the mutations is baffling at first, but after a while they become second nature. If a term gives you "no matches", almost without thinking you search it again with a different initial consonant.

I actually did search for cywir as well as gywir, and it couldn't find anything for either one. Go figure.
What do you mean by a "red underline"?

I mean the red wiggly lines that spellcheckers put under words they don't like.
Sorry, don't know how I overlooked that: the verb should've been ydy, not mae. Mae can occasionally be used interrogatively, but it can't ever be a negative form[*].

Thanks for clarifying.
[*] At least in Standard Welsh. Apparently some dialects allow it, but don't worry about that now.

Don't worry about that now?! I don't even know what dialect I've been using!
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Fri 07 Sep 2012 1:33 pm

Tikolm wrote:
Remember, adjectives mutate after yn.

So that's what mutates after yn. Thanks for specifying it.

Nouns, too. Not verb-nouns, though. That's why it's "Dw i'n ddysgwr" ("I'm a learner") but "Dw i'n dysgu" ("I'm learning").

Tikolm wrote:
I know that keeping track of the mutations is baffling at first, but after a while they become second nature. If a term gives you "no matches", almost without thinking you search it again with a different initial consonant.

I actually did search for cywir as well as gywir, and it couldn't find anything for either one. Go figure.

Check to see that "Nature of terms to search" is set to "Everything" and not limited by part of speech.

Tikolm wrote:
What do you mean by a "red underline"?

I mean the red wiggly lines that spellcheckers put under words they don't like.

Do you have a Welsh spellchecker?

Tikolm wrote:
[*] At least in Standard Welsh. Apparently some dialects allow it, but don't worry about that now.

Don't worry about that now?! I don't even know what dialect I've been using!

The differences are minor at this stage. The only bit you've been using which could really be identified as regional/dialectal is e for "he/him" (South) instead of o (North). I speak like a Southerner, but I've tried to avoid using specifically South Welsh forms (like yw for ydy, rw for dw, etc.)
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Fri 07 Sep 2012 7:50 pm

linguoboy wrote:Nouns, too. Not verb-nouns, though. That's why it's "Dw i'n ddysgwr" ("I'm a learner") but "Dw i'n dysgu" ("I'm learning").

Oh, okay.
Check to see that "Nature of terms to search" is set to "Everything" and not limited by part of speech.

Thanks. I just checked back there, and it was indeed set to "Nouns". When I set it to "Everything", it gave the actual definition of cywir.
Do you have a Welsh spellchecker?

Probably not, but even if I did I don't know how I'd get the computer to use that for online posts instead of the English one.
The differences are minor at this stage.

"This stage"?
The only bit you've been using which could really be identified as regional/dialectal is e for "he/him" (South) instead of o (North).

I didn't know about that. Welsh with Ease doesn't mention o versus e -- it just gives e.
I speak like a Southerner, but I've tried to avoid using specifically South Welsh forms (like yw for ydy, rw for dw, etc.)

But you did use yw in one of your posts:
Pa lyfr yw hwnna?

(And if I'm not mistaken, yw is some sort of contraction of the earlier ydyw.)
I also can't sort out when you use dw or rw. It seems that dw (or rw) is the spoken form of rydw, but dw can also replace dydw. This is what I've managed to infer from your posts and various web pages, but do I have it right?
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Fri 07 Sep 2012 8:02 pm

Tikolm wrote:
The differences are minor at this stage.

"This stage"?

The beginning stage. You have a vocabulary of, what, two dozen words? You haven't learned any of the terms (like "key" or "milk") that differ substantially between regions. There are also significant divergences in morphosyntax, but you haven't learned any of those tenses or constructions yet.

Tikolm wrote:
I speak like a Southerner, but I've tried to avoid using specifically South Welsh forms (like yw for ydy, rw for dw, etc.)

But you did use yw in one of your posts:
Pa lyfr yw hwnna?

I said "I've tried", I didn't say I've been 100% successful! I'm sure in some cases I've used specifically Southern forms simply without even realising it because I simply never learned the corresponding Northern forms.

Tikolm wrote:I also can't sort out when you use dw or rw. It seems that dw (or rw) is the spoken form of rydw, but dw can also replace dydw. This is what I've managed to infer from your posts and various web pages, but do I have it right?

Let me make it easy for you: don't use rw. Yes, it's a spoken form of rydw (which nobody uses natively), but so is dw. Use dw consistently and you won't ever be wrong.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Sat 08 Sep 2012 2:26 am

linguoboy wrote:The beginning stage. You have a vocabulary of, what, two dozen words?

I haven't counted, but that sounds about right.
You haven't learned any of the terms (like "key" or "milk") that differ substantially between regions.

I haven't? Off the top of my head I can think of two widely differing terms: "milk" (llaeth/llefrith) and "table" (bwrdd/ford [please correct me if I have the wrong number of d's]). There's also "dog", for which you use cw and I use ci.
There are also significant divergences in morphosyntax, but you haven't learned any of those tenses or constructions yet.

No, I don't believe I have.
I said "I've tried", I didn't say I've been 100% successful! I'm sure in some cases I've used specifically Southern forms simply without even realising it because I simply never learned the corresponding Northern forms.

Sure. That's okay.
Let me make it easy for you: don't use rw.

I don't.
Yes, it's a spoken form of rydw (which nobody uses natively), but so is dw. Use dw consistently and you won't ever be wrong.

Would you like me to use it for both rydw and dydw, or just for rydw?
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Sat 08 Sep 2012 3:32 am

Tikolm wrote:I haven't? Off the top of my head I can think of two widely differing terms: "milk" (llaeth/llefrith) and "table" (bwrdd/ford [please correct me if I have the wrong number of d's]).

Right number of d's, but the citation form is bord.

Tikolm wrote:There's also "dog", for which you use cw and I use ci.

Where do I use cw for "dog"?

Tikolm wrote:
Let me make it easy for you: don't use rw.

I don't.
Yes, it's a spoken form of rydw (which nobody uses natively), but so is dw. Use dw consistently and you won't ever be wrong.

Would you like me to use it for both rydw and dydw, or just for rydw?

It works for both. But for the interrogative form ydw is preferred.

Now let's try some sentences:

"Paid â rhoi llaeth i'r ci! Mae e wedi bwyta eisoes."
"Paid â gweiddi! Dw i ddim yn fyddar, nag ydw?"
"Lle mae'r ci wedi mynd nawr?"
"Mae e yna, dan y bwrdd."

(New verbs: bwyta "eat", gweiddi "shout", rhoi "give".)
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Sat 08 Sep 2012 5:05 am

linguoboy wrote:Right number of d's, but the citation form is bord.

Oh, whoops! I didn't realize Welsh with Ease gave the mutated form.
Where do I use cw for "dog"?

Mae'r cw'n cysgu

Somewhere on here.
It works for both. But for the interrogative form ydw is preferred.

Now let's try some sentences:

"Paid â rhoi llaeth i'r ci! Mae e wedi bwyta eisoes."
"Paid â gweiddi! Dw i ddim yn fyddar, nag ydw?"
"Lle mae'r ci wedi mynd nawr?"
"Mae e yna, dan y bwrdd."

(New verbs: bwyta "eat", gweiddi "shout", rhoi "give".)

You haven't told me what yn fyddar, eisoes and yna are, and I don't know offhand. The rest is fine.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby linguoboy » Sat 08 Sep 2012 7:52 pm

Tikolm wrote:
Where do I use cw for "dog"?

Mae'r cw'n cysgu

Somewhere on here.

That was sloppy of me. I must've been vacillating between the singular (ci) and the plural (cŵn), resulting in a form that was neither fish nor fowl.

Tikolm wrote:You haven't told me what yn fyddar, eisoes and yna are, and I don't know offhand.

But you have a dictionary at your disposal, and now you know how to make proper use of it.
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Re: Talk in a language you don't know

Postby Tikolm » Sat 08 Sep 2012 9:39 pm

linguoboy wrote:That was sloppy of me. I must've been vacillating between the singular (ci) and the plural (cŵn), resulting in a form that was neither fish nor fowl.

Oh, I see. So cw isn't a word at all?
But you have a dictionary at your disposal, and now you know how to make proper use of it.

Exactly. Looking up random bits of Welsh dialogues isn't the sort of thing I should be doing late at night, but now is a fine time to go find those words.
*disappears for a few minutes*

[begin edit]
eisoes "already"
byddar "deaf"
yna (no matches -- please explain?)
[end edit]
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