New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby linguoboy » Mon 11 Jun 2012 5:07 pm

Tikolm wrote:Oh well, I tried. Did I really say the silent letters were at the ends of words only?

I quoted you exactly. It's all there upthread if you want to double check.

Tikolm wrote:I had no way of knowing that this <mh> indicated a diphthong

Sure you did!

Tikolm wrote:and it's not pronounced as a consonant.

That depends on how you classify offglides.

Tikolm wrote:And may I point out that your pronunciation isn't the same as the one I found? How do you explain that?

Shocking as it may come to someone accustomed to the complete uniformity of English around the world, there are actually multiple acceptable ways of pronouncing Irish. My pronunciation is pretty close to contemporary West Muskerry (though many younger speakers would merge [ou] and [au]). What was the pronunciation you found and where did you find it?

Tikolm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Seann Triubhas. (It's a pretty strict rule of Gaelic orthography that you can't mix "slender" and "broad" vowels like that.)

In Irish, this word is spelled triús, with no silent letters.

Yes, I see now that I misspelled it. Thank you for pointing it up. I didn't realize it was a rule.

The usual formulation is caol le caol agus leathan le leathan ("slender with slender and broad with broad"). Any consonants in the middle of the word should be flanked by vowels of the same type to unambiguously indicate their quality. The chief exceptions are compounds (e.g. neamhní "nothing" from neamh- "non-" plus "thing") and a few directional adverbs with the prefix a-, e.g. aníos "from below; upwards", aniar "from the west; from behind".
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Mon 11 Jun 2012 9:04 pm

linguoboy wrote:
Tikolm wrote:...

Sure you did!

*bracing for having head bitten off* Shocking as it may be to someone who has taken the time to learn 11 languages, I don't tend to go around looking at these pages. I can't do everything in one day, so I had to put my all-important Irish research (sarcastic tone) aside for another time. Horrors!
Tikolm wrote:...

That depends on how you classify offglides.

Offglides are a vowel thing, are they not? I'll go look that up.
Tikolm wrote:...

Shocking as it may come to someone accustomed to the complete uniformity of English around the world, there are actually multiple acceptable ways of pronouncing Irish. My pronunciation is pretty close to contemporary West Muskerry (though many younger speakers would merge [ou] and [au]). What was the pronunciation you found and where did you find it?

On the X-SAMPA page.
Yes, all right, I jumped to conclusions there. I see that now. But what could you possibly have meant by the "uniformity" of English? I'm well aware that there are multiple different dialects and sub-dialects (we speak 3 sub-dialects in our house alone) of English, all with subtly to drastically different pronunciations. Whatever this uniformity you mention is, I'm not "used" to it.
Tikolm wrote:...

The usual formulation is caol le caol agus leathan le leathan ("slender with slender and broad with broad"). Any consonants in the middle of the word should be flanked by vowels of the same type to unambiguously indicate their quality. The chief exceptions are compounds (e.g. neamhní "nothing" from neamh- "non-" plus "thing") and a few directional adverbs with the prefix a-, e.g. aníos "from below; upwards", aniar "from the west; from behind".

Thank you for explaining.
Co zo xususuol lepas-is lemoxlo marel rusa ibok. We're spinning our wheels here. Or, if you like, we're stepping over and over on the banana peel. This discussion is going nowhere. Here's the new sample text:
Áià luáe nû Làe visitor dàe làe saoír dàes neaufiem áin. Set càe dái histáoire dàe deáux gârson dàe unean-deáux áîn, Charles ŷn Vincent, ci oivat empruntàe lá toile appeléà Làe visitor dàe làe saoír - set sà ci donne lá titre - pur làe amenàer à dòi carnavál à lor àécoleà. Oivat élaboràé îl dòi plan pur empruntar lá toile, mais náe oivat réussài îl parse que oivat pris dàê âutre vôlàor lá toile avan làe bail, etat ci samídi saoír. Oivat enlevàé lê vôlàor Charles ŷn demandé où étèait lá toile lui. Quand áiat dit Charles que etat càe chez Vincent, oivat téléphoné làê vôlàor à Vincent à lá salle dàe billeàrd ŷn demandàe lui dàe laisser lá toile dàes dái pubeláe pur que laissent îl Charles libre. Vox diàr nû beaucu dàe autre chôseá, mais set càe dái bonnáe livráe ŷn pot-téir vox tu láe liár. Mais set dòi po àtrangàe làe idàe dàe oivár dòi carnavál soleman pur donner dòi prix pur lá meioràe chosàe ci etat volàe. Set dòi jury à làe carnavàl ci dàcidàe làecel set lá meioràe prise ŷn donne dòi verdict. Recàoitàe làe àleàve avec làe meioràe prise làe trophàe Arsèane-Lûpin ŷn deáux ceanan deasan-seise dôleàr. Áià entendu nû náe jamais dàe dái àécoleà ci áiat dòi carnavál pur oivár làê àlêàve apporter tôute sôrte dàe chôseà que oivat voleàs îl. Ŷn tu nàe pluàs, croiàs nû. Set càe treàs àtrangàe, set càe náe? Si dàecideàs tu dàe liár càe livráe, prends làe avec dái gràeineà dàe seàl.
(Yes, it's still wrong. Forgive me and don't complain.)
And the phonology, mikyo (again):
a [a]
ae [e, E, @] (1)
â [A]
ai [E]
àe, ái [ai]
ao [i]
b [b]
c [k, c] (2)
d [d]
e [e, E, @] (3)
ê [@]
f [f]
g [g, Z]
h [0] (4)
i [i]
î [1]
j [Z]
l [l]
m [m]
n [n]
o [o]
ô [O]
oi [i]
p [p]
q, qu [k]
r [r, 4] (5)
s [s, S] (6)
t [t]
u [u]
û [y]
v [v]
w [w, u] (7)
x [s]
y [I]
ŷ [&]
z [z]
1. [e] in open syllables; [E] in closed syllables; [@] when unstressed.
2. [c] when preceded or followed by e or i; [k] elsewhere.
3. [e] in open syllables; [E] in closed syllables; [@] in final position.
4. I haven't decided yet on a pronunciation.
5. [r] in some dialects; [4] in others.
6. [S] when preceded or followed by e or i; [s] elsewhere.
7. We don't have any w's yet. I don't know where they go. We'll need either new words, a spelling reform or both.
And the present tense of oivar (have):
nû áià
tu áias
il/el áiat
nu oivan
tû oivas
îl/êl oivat
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
(Website is at http://risteq.net/ if you ever want to visit. It's supposed to be in 4 languages.)
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Tue 12 Jun 2012 1:45 am

I spent some time reading the Irish orthography page and tak-rielel, that stuff's hard for me to picture. I suppose I have to look up velarization now, because I'm having a hard time figuring out all the superscript j's and gammas. I hope I don't need velarization too. I couldn't find anything to support the statement that the bh, mh, etc. are becoming offglides. They certainly affect the quality of the vowel, so I'm not going to deny that, but they don't have a consonantal sound of their own. If somebody can find a page to refute what I've just said, please post a link.
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
(Website is at http://risteq.net/ if you ever want to visit. It's supposed to be in 4 languages.)
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby linguoboy » Tue 12 Jun 2012 4:23 pm

Tikolm wrote:I spent some time reading the Irish orthography page and tak-rielel, that stuff's hard for me to picture. I suppose I have to look up velarization now, because I'm having a hard time figuring out all the superscript j's and gammas. I hope I don't need velarization too. I couldn't find anything to support the statement that the bh, mh, etc. are becoming offglides. They certainly affect the quality of the vowel, so I'm not going to deny that, but they don't have a consonantal sound of their own. If somebody can find a page to refute what I've just said, please post a link.

Here's additional information on "offglides" or "semivowels" and the similarities that they show to consonants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semivowel.
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby linguoboy » Tue 12 Jun 2012 4:41 pm

Tikolm wrote:Shocking as it may be to someone who has taken the time to learn 11 languages, I don't tend to go around looking at these pages. I can't do everything in one day, so I had to put my all-important Irish research (sarcastic tone) aside for another time. Horrors!

You don't have to look at the information that is out there, but it is out there. It simply not true to say that you "had no way of knowing that this <mh> indicated a diphthong". There's no shame in not knowing that, but this is exactly why you shouldn't leap to conclusions about languages and orthographies you don't know well.

Tikolm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Shocking as it may come to someone accustomed to the complete uniformity of English around the world, there are actually multiple acceptable ways of pronouncing Irish. My pronunciation is pretty close to contemporary West Muskerry (though many younger speakers would merge [ou] and [au]). What was the pronunciation you found and where did you find it?

On the X-SAMPA page.

Unfortunately they don't give their source, so I'm not sure which pronunciation that is meant to indicate.

Tikolm wrote:But what could you possibly have meant by the "uniformity" of English? I'm well aware that there are multiple different dialects and sub-dialects (we speak 3 sub-dialects in our house alone) of English, all with subtly to drastically different pronunciations. Whatever this uniformity you mention is, I'm not "used" to it.

My point (expressed with a touch of sarcasm) was that someone used to the lack of uniformity in English pronunciation shouldn't be surprised to find such lack of uniformity in Irish as well. There are three major dialects: Ulster, Connacht, and Munster, and each of those is divided into several subdialects on the basis of lexicon, grammar, and--you guessed it!--pronunciation.

It's true some languages (e.g. German) do have a normative pronunciation standard, but Irish isn't one of them. There's been an attempt to create one (called lárchanúint or "central dialect"), but it's very artificial and I've never met anyone who uses it.
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Wed 13 Jun 2012 1:19 am

I get the point. I'll stop stepping on the banana peel on one condition: if you stop picking my nits. All right? Deal? :P
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Wed 13 Jun 2012 8:24 pm

The fixed numbers:
unea
deaw
traois
catra
seinc
seise
sep
wit
neawf
deis
onae
deas
unean
unean unea
unean deaw
...and so on. Sample text in a few. I have a project for school so will be doing that for a while.
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Wed 13 Jun 2012 10:10 pm

Orthography update: <àe> and <ái> are being replaced by <ài>. Acute accents now mean a long vowel, so from now on they won't be scattered around willy-nilly. There's a spelling reform in progress. When it's done, Erian (aka Aoireas) will no longer look like it's making maximum use of diacritics. We're slowly progressing from terribly misspelled French to a sensible language. And if I can learn palatalization, that will be in there too.
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
(Website is at http://risteq.net/ if you ever want to visit. It's supposed to be in 4 languages.)
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Thu 14 Jun 2012 12:00 am

Oh, whoops, that should also have been onài, not onae. I seem to be accumulating a long list of different dialects. I'll have to write up the differences sometime. There's the ever-present palatalization, of varying degrees, for one. There may also be velarization, and nobody can agree on how many vowels are long or what all those accents are for. And then there are the plurals. I think there are multiple ways to form them. It isn't always circumflexed. And I think somebody has "yn" without the circumflex, too.
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
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Re: New (ish) conlang: Aoireas

Postby Tikolm » Mon 18 Jun 2012 4:01 pm

Just fixed the sample text. This is not the final version; I still have to conjugate tons of verbs. But the spelling is now pretty close to being standardized.

Àia liaw nû Lài vistoír dai lài saoir dàis neawfém ain. Set cài dài istáoir dai deáw gâórs dai unean-deaw âin, Searl ŷn Vainsân, ci oivat ampruntài la toilea aplái Lài vistoír dai lài saoir - set sa ci don la tisre - pur lài amenar a doi carnaval a laor ŷcolai. Oivat elaborài îl doi plan pur ampruntar la toilea, mais nài oivat résài îl parse ce oivat pris dàê âwtre vôlaor la toilea avan lài bail, etat ci samidi saoir. Oivat enlevài làî vôlaor Searl ŷn demandài ù etat la toilea ly. Can àiat dit Searl ce etat cài sé Vainsân, oivat telefonài làî vôlaor a Vainsân a la sal dài bilear ŷn demandài ly dài laiser la toilea dàis dài pubelài pur ce laisan îl Searl libre. Vos diàr nû bocu dàe âwtre seôsai, mais set cài dài bonài livrai ŷn pot téir vos tu lài liàr. Mais set doi py atrangài lài idai dài oivar doi carnaval selman pur doner doi pri pur la meóre seosai ci etat volài. Set doi jûri a lài carnaval ci dasidài làicel set la meóre prise ŷn don doi verdyc. Recwite lài alaiv av lài meóre prise lài trofài Arsain-Lûpain ŷn deaw ceanan deasan-seise dôlear. Àia antendu nû nài jamais dai dài ŷcolai ci àiat doi carnaval pur oivar làî âlaiv aporter tût sôrt dai seôsai ce oivat volài îl. Ŷn twa nài pluas, craos nû. Set cài treas atrangài, set cài nài? Si dàicidais tu dài liàr cài livrai, pran lài av dài gràinai dai sail.

I'd love to hear your opinions! :)
Native: English
Fluent: français
Basic: Cymraeg
Really basic: Español, lingua latīna
Conlangs (current): tikolmil, llyffws, Arliks, dilir
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