The Life of Esperanto

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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Neqitan » Thu 28 Jan 2010 12:29 am

Remush wrote:If you base your believes just on what Culver wrote [...]
Who are you adressing this to? It seems totally off-topic of our last posts.
Delodephius wrote:
But Delodephius, Esperanto is not a simple pidgin, it has now become just another language.

No, I meant learning just Esperanto instead of a few major natlangs.
I was responding to this comment:
Delodephius wrote:But I found it too simple and boring. That and plus the fact I'd rather know several world languages than one auxiliary language. I don't like to make things simpler. Making things simpler means dumbing down is not far away.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Talib » Thu 28 Jan 2010 12:32 am

Remush wrote:[Usually learning the grammar and a decent vocabulary of a languages takes years;
In Esperanto weeks.
No need to exaggerate. I learned basic Spanish grammar and vocabulary in a few months; it could be done faster by somebody who's really motivated and devotes their full attention to it.
Perhaps you are that sort of guy who needs to refer to some authority when he can check easily on his own.
Why should he have to check claims you made? If you said it, it's your responsibility to back it up.
Very strange that an apparently innocent language can generate such hate reactions from people who do not know a word from it.
I know enough words - such as lingvoj - to say that I honestly don't like the sound of it, but it's not Esperanto I hate. It's the pushy Esperantists who think they're on some sort of divinely ordained mission to convert the entire world to Esperantismo. Esperanto is not a lingua franca and it's nothing more than a fairly uninventive but moderately successful Euroclone.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Remd » Thu 28 Jan 2010 4:51 pm

I'm not really into this topic (I mean, Esperanto movement and all that stuff) but I agree with Delodephius about the fact that multilingualism is typically human and obviusly any child can speak several languages without any problem, I don't think I need to prove that because here almost every child speaks Catalan and Spanish. And that's why I don't like very much the idea of a world lingua franca because it would inevitably lead to the death of a lot of natural languages since not everyone likes languages and many people would choose to study only one (pressumably the most useful).
On the other hand, I dabbled with Esperanto some time ago because I wondered how a conlang (which isn't so imaginative and innovative and could have been invented by anyone) had achieved that level of relative sucess. From that experience, I'd say it isn't that easy, I mean, you can learn some grammar, vocabulary, even some affixes (which are not easy at all if you're not used) but it doesn't make you speak naturally, you need to practise just as with any other language.
I do admit that now it has (at least for the few people who speak it) a status of (almost natural) minoritary language, which is completely respectable, but that idea seems totally incompatible with the ideas of the most staunch esperantists.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Remush » Thu 28 Jan 2010 9:05 pm

[quote="Delodephius"But I found it too simple and boring. I don't like to make things simpler. Making things simpler means dumbing down is not far away.[/quote]
That was my impression after reading the "Teach yourself Esperanto".
There were many criticizable points, namely the use of "kaj" and the article "la". How could people like that?

Years later, I happen to see a big sign: "Esperanto World Congress".
What? Are there more than ten guys crazy enough on the planet to attend a world congress? I entered and had to change my opinion about Languages; Life, the Universe, and Everything.

Analogies:
There are about the same amount of rules in Chess as in Esperanto. is the game boring you as well?
The rules of GO are even simpler. The complexity of the game if probably higher than chess.
The base of computers is the binary system. No doubt at lot can be done with simple things.

You can combine twelve musical notes, changing their tone and create a symphony.
The degree of freedom of Esperanto is high because the constrains are few..

Any teacher knows that keeping things simple is very hard.
Aber warum einfach, wenn's auch kompliziert geht?
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Delodephius » Thu 28 Jan 2010 9:47 pm

I never thought I'd meat a language zealot.

Esperanto is a boring language. Esperantists make it even more so.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Talib » Thu 28 Jan 2010 9:57 pm

Off-topic, but whoa, you've just completely changed the list in your signature. What sparked that?
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Delodephius » Thu 28 Jan 2010 10:15 pm

I just changed the names of languages into their endonyms, and added couple of languages only to the future goal part, just for the heck of it because I didn't think I'll ever learn them, and some like Breton and Kurdish I find interesting but I doubt I'll learn them one day, but I'm not saying I won't.

EDIT: Also, I come from a small community, like 50.000 people, and knowing just a few of those languages I added there will earn me a lot of respect and admiration. Even that would be a cause on its own to learn them, but I'm not crazy for attention so I'll just learn them for fun.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby linguoboy » Thu 28 Jan 2010 10:26 pm

Delodephius wrote:Esperanto is a boring language. Esperantists make it even more so.

This is rather unfair. I've known a fair number of Esperantists over the years and few of them are tedious as your man. The more linguistically-sophisticated ones would laugh at loud at his claims. (I gained a new respect for the movement when Don Harlow (of fond memory) admitted to me that no Esperantist who knows anything about linguistics would seriously maintain that all you need to know to speak the language is in that document, and that this claim was nothing more than a clever bit of marketing on the part of Zamenhof.) The vast majority are content to view their hobby for what it is--a source of great satisfaction for them and of great indifference for most of the world--and only get argumentative when it's unfairly characterised.

So, yeah, Esperanto doesn't interest me. Neither does Japanese, but I'm hardly going to dismiss the entire Japanophile population on account of a few crazed otaku.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby Delodephius » Thu 28 Jan 2010 10:30 pm

Your right, it was a bit out of line. I just never met any Esperantists before.
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Re: The Life of Esperanto

Postby linguoboy » Thu 28 Jan 2010 10:36 pm

Delodephius wrote:Your right, it was a bit out of line. I just never met any Esperantists before.

What about formiko?
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