Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Sun 14 Jun 2009 12:49 pm

Here is good place to start reading about human rights in Greece:
http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?sec=194&ctg=202
- Latina Ἑλληνική संस्कृतम् पाळि עִבְרִית پارسيک الفصحى 文言 Norrœnt
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Sobekhotep » Sun 14 Jun 2009 10:56 pm

Well, the Hellenic Republic definitely has some human rights issues. But I would argue that it's nowhere near "barbaric". That term should only be reserved for the absolute worst human rights offenders, like Sudan & Burma/Myanmar.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Sun 14 Jun 2009 11:22 pm

But Greece is a member of the European Union. There should be no place for such issues in such an institution. I have observed events related to human rights abuses in Greece for good five years now. It is appalling. Without understating, the Hellenic Republic is a fascist state.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Sobekhotep » Tue 16 Jun 2009 1:43 am

Delodephius wrote:the Hellenic Republic is a fascist state.

:roll:
Last time I checked, it was a fully functional parliamentary republic.
But, if you just want to hate on Greece, I won't try to stop you. :|
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Tue 16 Jun 2009 2:05 am

There are very good reasons why Greece is an intolerant place for people of different ethnicity but Greek. With such fine examples like the minister for economy calling black people not humans, I only wonder what kind behaviour one would expect from non-public figures. It is one thing that the Greek government self promotes itself as a democratic republic, but I cannot stop wondering when will that Western gullibility end and Westerners start to see how peoples in the Balkans love them only if they support their material and/or ideological goals, and then of course exploit them. If you live in a society in which lying is not considered unethical then you just might be living in the Balkans. As it happens to be I do live in in the Balkans. So don't tell me that last time you checked something in the Balkans was the way it presented on such excuses for source of information like Wikipedia. People here don't have the respect for others to tell them anything truthful. What ever information you have on Balkan politics, consider it 99% false. This here is feudalism, not democracy or anything near to that concept. If you want to find out even the basics of the situation here, you should move here and feel it on your skin like we do every day. I'd give you a week before you exclaim our world as ridiculous and absurd.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Talib » Tue 16 Jun 2009 6:53 am

I think it's ridiculous and absurd to call the likes of Greece a fascist state even if it does have flaws, especially when more flawed democracies like Serbia are on your doorstep.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Tue 16 Jun 2009 7:35 am

Compared to Greece, Serbia is a haven for minorities. At least here I can go my whole life without even bothering to even learn Serbian, since all the institutions and media are available in my native language. Unlike in Greece, here I wouldn't be stoned and ridiculed for my wish to express myself in my native language, to provide my children with an education in it and at least have access to some felicities that preserve my people's unique culture and language. It is vastly different here than in the fascist state of Greece where everyone is Greek and any language but Greek is considered foreign and "evil" and is shunned upon. And just because some countries have more flaws than others, that is the old argument by saying that something is of lesser importance because there exist something worse, I never cared for and consider an irrelevant argument. Besides, why do you compare Greece to a non-EU state that suffered dictatorship and war in the last 20 years and not an EU country? Since their entrance into the union Greece's human rights abuses have only increased, although even that is hard to imagine since it was an human rights catastrophe to begin with. Compared to ex-Yugoslavia where it was pointed out on every footstep that the federation is a union of nations and nationalities and multi-ethnic sentiment was promoted non-stop. Serbia and other Ex-Yu countries "unfortunately" preserved this legacy despite the war and carnage, even Kosovo of all places cannot chafe it off. While Greece is a homogeneous country to that extent that they have no concept for multiculturalism or tolerance for anyone but Greeks and continue to abuse anyone within their borders who thinks otherwise.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Talib » Tue 16 Jun 2009 10:06 am

Why is Greece a fascist state because it doesn't officially support your language is my point. Language policy alone isn't enough to make a claim like that about a country's entire political system.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Tue 16 Jun 2009 2:23 pm

If it was only a language policy. Language rights abuse is only a small portion of the problem. Things like genocide over Macedonians and Turks and the brutal Hellenisation is also just a part of the problem. Think of all the problems together, don't isolate them and say they are not a big deal.
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Re: Greece, a perfect example of barbaric country?

Postby Delodephius » Tue 16 Jun 2009 2:25 pm

Victor Friedman
Professor of Balkan and Slavic Linguistics
University of Chicago

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7136/2/

I went to Athens on 2 June 2009 for the promotion of the first Modern Greek-Macedonian dictionary to be published in Greece (by Zora [dawn], the publishing arm of Vinozhito [Rainbow] the ethnic Macedonian political party in Greece).

The first part of the promotion proper was presented by Riki Van Boeschoeten, a Dutch Hellenist who has been teaching at the University of Volos for the past 10 years. Riki's speech alluded to the same verses in Daniil's Tetraglosson (1802) that I have also cited and that begin "Albanians, Bulgars, Vlachs, and all who now do speak/An alien tongue, rejoice!, prepare to make you Greek!/Give up your barbarian tongues, your customs rude forego/So that as bygone myths your children may them know." and so on.

Then I began my speech, which concentrated on the Greek persecution of the Modern Macedonian language in the twentieth century. The speech was in English, which most but not all of the audience understood. Riki kindly served as my translator. It was a 5-page speech, and at the bottom of page four, just as Riki finished translating "On the one hand, we can note that dialects such as those of Florina and Edhessa in Greece are so close to those of neighboring Bitola and Gevgelija in neighboring Macedonia that calling them separate languages does not have a basis in the linguistic data.

On the other hand, if we accept the argument that the Macedonian dialects of Greece are a separate language or separate languages, then their documentation is all the more urgent, since they are on the very brink of extinction." and before I could begin the next sentence, which was "Either way, it is to be hoped that the Greek government will permit linguists to document these dialects before they disappear without the police harassment that, unfortunately, continues to instill fear in speakers and obstruct researchers." about a dozen thugs dressed in black and wearing the kind of combat helmets that riot police wear burst into the room screaming and yelling.

All but two of them took up positions by the doors so no one could escape. Two large louts were screaming at us on the podium and at the audience "Oli ekso!" [Everybody out], and "Prodhotes!" [Traitors] "Edo einai Ellada" ['Here is Greece' -- the same motto that was used on placards banning the speaking of Macedonian and Vlah that used to be all over 'Greek' Macedonia] and other things I did not catch. One of them ripped the banner off the podium that had the name of the book in Greek and Macedonian. Another ripped out the wires that the TV cameras were attached to. I decided that if they were going to beat me up I would try to get a picture of it and pulled out my camera. I took a picture but wasn't sure it worked so I took another. The bearded thug was about to hit me with a combat helmet when the fat thug stopped him. Apparently the dogs were under orders to bark but not bite. We did not know this at the time, however. They kept screaming and yelling and making menacing gestures, but did not actually come up onto the podium. One of them screamed at me 'sign me this book' in English using the intonation that one would use to scream 'I'm going to smash your head in'. After a few more minutes of screaming and yelling they left, taking the display copy of the dictionary with them. (They did not, however, actually destroy it in our presence.)

After a few minutes of discussion we resumed the promotion and I finished my speech. I got one of the loudest rounds of applause I have ever had. After it was all over, we stayed in the building for quite a while until it was safe to leave. There were riot police stationed outside the building, but they were probably the same people who let the thugs in in the first place. They also got very angry when I photographed them. We later learned that a Greek fascist political party called Hrisi Avgi [Golden Dawn] had had a rally just before our book promotion. The police were present at the rally, and so the thugs could not have come to the Foreign Press Association building, where our promotion was held, without their knowledge. Unfortunately, such incidents can be connected directly to the Greek government's policy toward its ethnic Macedonian minority.
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