Comments on: Fluency and literacy http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/ language-related musings - one language is never enough / dydy un iaith byth yn ddigon Sat, 30 Aug 2008 10:54:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: Pablo http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-88532 Fri, 09 May 2008 13:48:32 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-88532 I know many phrases and even some conversational pieces in many languages which I do not speak, and definitely cannot read. Think Mandarin. I know several phrases in Mandarin but if you showed me the written characters, I would be clueless. I think this can happen in almost any language, though I admit, for me to actually learn a language, I need to read and write it too, which I find does help with speaking. As far as the reverse situation, I am sure this happens just as if not more frequently. I speak Spanish, but can read reasonably well almost any major romance language (Romanian being somewhat an exception). I would think the same would hold true for German speakers with Dutch, and much moreso with Norwegian/Danish, etc. I know many phrases and even some conversational pieces in many languages which I do not speak, and definitely cannot read. Think Mandarin. I know several phrases in Mandarin but if you showed me the written characters, I would be clueless. I think this can happen in almost any language, though I admit, for me to actually learn a language, I need to read and write it too, which I find does help with speaking.

As far as the reverse situation, I am sure this happens just as if not more frequently. I speak Spanish, but can read reasonably well almost any major romance language (Romanian being somewhat an exception). I would think the same would hold true for German speakers with Dutch, and much moreso with Norwegian/Danish, etc.

]]> by: PP http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-87681 Thu, 01 May 2008 22:56:37 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-87681 Weili: Unbelivable? Why? I know many people who can just read and write english, why do you think it is impossible with chinese? Weili: Unbelivable? Why? I know many people who can just read and write english, why do you think it is impossible with chinese?

]]> by: Weili http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-87339 Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:06:21 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-87339 "I have a friend who learnt how to read Mandarin Chinese without learning how to speak the language. Since Chinese Characters are unique ‘pictures’, a Chinese text seems like a series of pictures to her. She learnt enough characters to read Chinese newspapers without knowing how they sound like. However, she speaks conversational Cantonese." As a native Mandarin-Chinese speaker, that seems rather unbelievable to me and very similar to the myth of Chinese characters being "just pictures"... With that said though, I'd be interested to learn about any formal studies being done to see how difficult or easy, and if possible, to learn JUST written Chinese. “I have a friend who learnt how to read Mandarin Chinese without learning how to speak the language. Since Chinese Characters are unique ‘pictures’, a Chinese text seems like a series of pictures to her. She learnt enough characters to read Chinese newspapers without knowing how they sound like. However, she speaks conversational Cantonese.”

As a native Mandarin-Chinese speaker, that seems rather unbelievable to me and very similar to the myth of Chinese characters being “just pictures”…

With that said though, I’d be interested to learn about any formal studies being done to see how difficult or easy, and if possible, to learn JUST written Chinese.

]]> by: Uruwashii http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-86754 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:18:09 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-86754 I have a friend who learnt how to read Mandarin Chinese without learning how to speak the language. Since Chinese Characters are unique 'pictures', a Chinese text seems like a series of pictures to her. She learnt enough characters to read Chinese newspapers without knowing how they sound like. However, she speaks conversational Cantonese. I have a friend who learnt how to read Mandarin Chinese without learning how to speak the language. Since Chinese Characters are unique ‘pictures’, a Chinese text seems like a series of pictures to her. She learnt enough characters to read Chinese newspapers without knowing how they sound like. However, she speaks conversational Cantonese.

]]> by: Phil http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85740 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:35:37 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85740 I agree with Vickram that . Some of the students I teach came to Canada at an early age. They speak their home language fluently but cannot read. In particular, I'm thinking of a student from Hong kong and a Tamil speaking student from Sri Lanka. I also have a friend from Sri Lanka whose first language is Singhalese. She studied English at university and went on to become a lecturer in English. She can read Singhalese but is much more comfortable with English. If there is a book by a Singhalese author she wants to read, she looks for the English translation. I also agree with Peter Austin when he says that Europeans and Asians have a hang up about the written form. In fact, I get the feeling that many Chinese speakers are talking only about the writing system when they talk about Chinese, and that speaking is some ephermeral side effect of The Language. I don't think not being able to read and write need necessarily adversely affect someone's language learning ability. You can get great vocab from watching BBC world and then asking a native speaker. While it is natural to learn a language while not being able to read or write, being able to read a language while not getting an opportunity to speak it is extremely difficult. I've been plugging away at Old English and Old Norse now for 12 years and wouldn't be able to pass a GCSE in any of the skill areas. Some people manage to do it, but it isn't natural. Don't forget, we only invented writing about a few thousand years ago. I agree with Vickram that . Some of the students I teach came to Canada at an early age. They speak their home language fluently but cannot read. In particular, I’m thinking of a student from Hong kong and a Tamil speaking student from Sri Lanka.

I also have a friend from Sri Lanka whose first language is Singhalese. She studied English at university and went on to become a lecturer in English. She can read Singhalese but is much more comfortable with English. If there is a book by a Singhalese author she wants to read, she looks for the English translation.

I also agree with Peter Austin when he says that Europeans and Asians have a hang up about the written form. In fact, I get the feeling that many Chinese speakers are talking only about the writing system when they talk about Chinese, and that speaking is some ephermeral side effect of The Language.

I don’t think not being able to read and write need necessarily adversely affect someone’s language learning ability. You can get great vocab from watching BBC world and then asking a native speaker.

While it is natural to learn a language while not being able to read or write, being able to read a language while not getting an opportunity to speak it is extremely difficult. I’ve been plugging away at Old English and Old Norse now for 12 years and wouldn’t be able to pass a GCSE in any of the skill areas. Some people manage to do it, but it isn’t natural.

Don’t forget, we only invented writing about a few thousand years ago.

]]> by: Cakra http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85727 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:05:32 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85727 For learners of Thai, in response No.2, I think it's different. Even many foreigners learn Thai without knowing the alphabet, they still use transcripted text material. So it mean they don't absolutely learn the language only by speaking and listening. But I think it's possible to learn language with only speaking and listening. As in response No.1, I also heard that people from hill tribes learn languages of each other. And of course, they do not have text material. But they still can speak fluently. For learners of Thai, in response No.2, I think it’s different. Even many foreigners learn Thai without knowing the alphabet, they still use transcripted text material. So it mean they don’t absolutely learn the language only by speaking and listening.

But I think it’s possible to learn language with only speaking and listening. As in response No.1, I also heard that people from hill tribes learn languages of each other. And of course, they do not have text material. But they still can speak fluently.

]]> by: Seumas http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85697 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:03:28 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85697 I've had experience of both (learning a language exclusively by speaking or reading)... I spent a couple of months in Malawi two years ago, living among people who spoke chiTumbuka. I learned a fair bit of it - entirely by ear, without reading it. Coming from a Gaelic/English background, it was difficult to absorb a lot of the vocabulary (without seeing it written) as none of it bore any resemblance to Indo-European language. When I was doing my theology degree, I learned to read and write Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew. My speaking ability in both is abysmal!! For my PhD, I have had to learn to read Dutch and I can speak it at the level of a 4 year old child. Also, my wife's first language is Gaelic. She did all of her primary school education in Gaelic, though she could speak English fluently by the time she was about 6 or 7. She didn't learn to read or write English until she was about 10 or 11, I think. I’ve had experience of both (learning a language exclusively by speaking or reading)…

I spent a couple of months in Malawi two years ago, living among people who spoke chiTumbuka. I learned a fair bit of it - entirely by ear, without reading it. Coming from a Gaelic/English background, it was difficult to absorb a lot of the vocabulary (without seeing it written) as none of it bore any resemblance to Indo-European language.

When I was doing my theology degree, I learned to read and write Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew. My speaking ability in both is abysmal!!

For my PhD, I have had to learn to read Dutch and I can speak it at the level of a 4 year old child.

Also, my wife’s first language is Gaelic. She did all of her primary school education in Gaelic, though she could speak English fluently by the time she was about 6 or 7. She didn’t learn to read or write English until she was about 10 or 11, I think.

]]> by: James http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85467 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:25:50 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85467 That hebrew article is very interesting. Of course reading is very helpful, especially if you are in a context where you have limited spoken imput, and it´s necesary to be able to write well. I actually started reading books in my second week of Spanish (the first one as a book on the history of latin america,and then I moved onto detective novels). I´d read at near english speed, looking up words only when I couldn´t guess a suitable meaning. With the Hebrew example, it´s important that he was getting pretty much daily extended exposure in the context of friendship,and getting corrections, which often, so often, does not learn, especially if your status is higher than the people you are spending time with. It would be interesting to know more about the 4 natives who listened to his conversation: so much of people´s perception of accents/fluency is about THEM, not the speaker. I have experience of learning languages I don´t speak (Latin, classical hebrew, classical greek). For me this is a nightmare, and my big regret of my master/ PhD was not taking 3 months out twice over to learn the modern forms of Hebrew and Greek. Oh well. ;) I´m finding that really digging into a language is more rewarding that having smatterings of a dozen. That hebrew article is very interesting. Of course reading is very helpful, especially if you are in a context where you have limited spoken imput, and it´s necesary to be able to write well. I actually started reading books in my second week of Spanish (the first one as a book on the history of latin america,and then I moved onto detective novels). I´d read at near english speed, looking up words only when I couldn´t guess a suitable meaning.

With the Hebrew example, it´s important that he was getting pretty much daily extended exposure in the context of friendship,and getting corrections, which often, so often, does not learn, especially if your status is higher than the people you are spending time with.

It would be interesting to know more about the 4 natives who listened to his conversation: so much of people´s perception of accents/fluency is about THEM, not the speaker.

I have experience of learning languages I don´t speak (Latin, classical hebrew, classical greek). For me this is a nightmare, and my big regret of my master/ PhD was not taking 3 months out twice over to learn the modern forms of Hebrew and Greek. Oh well. ;) I´m finding that really digging into a language is more rewarding that having smatterings of a dozen.

]]> by: Voytec http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85456 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:48:17 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85456 I have to agree that it's possible and that the language skills are very much dependant on the ways of acquiring the language. When learning English years ago, most of my input was reading and most practice writing. For a few years I've been using English at work, but only in the written form. I've only had few conversations (literally) at that time. I felt confident in reading and writing, but not at all in speaking. Even after 2 years of living in an English speaking country, my spoken English is still lagging behind my reading and writing skills. When I compare writing skills of people who have similar spoken fluency to mine, there is usually big difference in favour of my writing. Quite opposite to that, the way I've learned to speak Czech was only through interaction with real people. I've moved to a foreign country, alone, with no friends and after ending up in in a house with group of Czech people, very close friends to each other, I quickly became friends with them. As they were in majority and using their native language between themselves, it was only natural thing for me to adapt. After one year I was able to easily understand their language and express my opinions most of the time. I felt comfortable to talk about almost anything with them. That was nothing I was working on or planning to achieve, it just happened naturally. What's important, while being quite comfortable using spoken language I was hopeless at reading and writing. I only knew how the words sounded but never learned how they were written. Here's an interesting story of a guy who learned to speak very good Hebrew just by interaction with native speakers (he never learned to read or write): http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/all.html I have to agree that it’s possible and that the language skills are very much dependant on the ways of acquiring the language. When learning English years ago, most of my input was reading and most practice writing. For a few years I’ve been using English at work, but only in the written form. I’ve only had few conversations (literally) at that time. I felt confident in reading and writing, but not at all in speaking. Even after 2 years of living in an English speaking country, my spoken English is still lagging behind my reading and writing skills. When I compare writing skills of people who have similar spoken fluency to mine, there is usually big difference in favour of my writing.
Quite opposite to that, the way I’ve learned to speak Czech was only through interaction with real people. I’ve moved to a foreign country, alone, with no friends and after ending up in in a house with group of Czech people, very close friends to each other, I quickly became friends with them. As they were in majority and using their native language between themselves, it was only natural thing for me to adapt. After one year I was able to easily understand their language and express my opinions most of the time. I felt comfortable to talk about almost anything with them. That was nothing I was working on or planning to achieve, it just happened naturally. What’s important, while being quite comfortable using spoken language I was hopeless at reading and writing. I only knew how the words sounded but never learned how they were written.

Here’s an interesting story of a guy who learned to speak very good Hebrew just by interaction with native speakers (he never learned to read or write):
http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/all.html

]]> by: Vickram http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85427 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:59:16 +0000 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2008/04/21/fluency-and-literacy/#comment-85427 I imagine this is a condition you'll find in the children of immigrants, who may learn to speak a language but not read or write it. My mother tongue is Hindi, which I spoke fluently till the age of 5, whereupon I moved to Canada. I did not learn to read Hindi until much, much later in life -- most immigrant children probably don't bother to do so. I tend to agree that not having been able to read Hindi did stunt my fluency in the language and to appreciate classical literature. I imagine this is a condition you’ll find in the children of immigrants, who may learn to speak a language but not read or write it.

My mother tongue is Hindi, which I spoke fluently till the age of 5, whereupon I moved to Canada. I did not learn to read Hindi until much, much later in life — most immigrant children probably don’t bother to do so. I tend to agree that not having been able to read Hindi did stunt my fluency in the language and to appreciate classical literature.

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